A bit like my 18 years worth from Germany. Because it was the same status as civil and public servants being in the academic world, it entitled me to take it at 60. I applied to have it from 70, speculating on my ability to survive that long, because the forecast of the bit of interest made it look interesting at the time. Now I realise I was a 'plonker', should have taken it with health problems that arose and because the interest is now way, way below inflation. Nonetheless, the forecast then was good as it was. Combined with the UK pittance it is actually a liveable amount.
I worked in France for 2.5 years from 1982-85 and I've kept in touch with the funds. A few months ago, I received a pension forecast from the assurance retraite for when I turn 65 next year. For 2.5 years the forecast looks quite generous - perhaps I should have stayed longer :-)
All cribbed. The advantage of having a big fat file. That is so much like much of my work that extracting it comes almost on autopilot.
However, hilarious perhaps not but tragicomic for sure. Bureaucracy is, as so often, a farce. Glancing back over the file as I was taking it back to where it is kept I noted that the US State Department do not appear particularly enthusiastic about having 'their' people back either. The Embassy interventions are 'mutterings' rather than bold statements. On the basis of 'every little helps' there also appears to be too many 'too littles'.
Great story, maybe I'll turn it into a soap opera, sell it, (I do live in Hollywood after all), and live off the dividends, LOL
Brian, tragic but hilarious! Well written too, I'll give you partial credit when I sell the thing, Just kidding
Once again Julian, you come through for me! I realize those are general numbers, but you put it nicely in perspective with your examples. You make it easy to understand, thank you indeed.
It is a minefield as my OH would explain. She had a client whose house she was trying to sell until last year. The woman died, so the sale was for her son. Anyway, the woman was actually a US citizen. Her family were Italian Americans who used Italian as the family language. They came to France immediately after WW2, so she grew up here with Italian at home and French. She had all but forgotten any English. She married an Italian French, or so she thought. When he died twenty-odd years back it transpired he had been born in Italy, his family migrated just before WW2 but he had never become French. He was just in the system here, as it was then. That went unnoticed until he died. Since she had been here so long and unnoticed by bureaucracy she was allowed to stay without formalities. However, she had to survive on money from her family because the social security people worked out that whilst her husband had had his pension, she was not entitled to anything as a widow. Both of her sons had to then have their situation reviewed and formally apply to have their 'French' citizenship because although born here the verdict was that they were erroneously given it. The older was studying in the USA at the time so had to deal with the State Department to get US citizenship, he could have done it in Italy instead but was there, so. However, that made it all the worse here because then bureaucrats saw that her parents were US citizens, she was actually one and had never tried to become French although that had been overlooked in general, and now her son was now a US citizen. That he was also a dual national by then was conveniently overlooked. So, one of her many appeals the son still here, who by then had his French citizenship, was submitting for her was met with the response that either the USA or Italy was responsible for her widow's pension. In fact, Italy more likely given her husband's actual nationality.
Because they were both Italian speakers, she got on with my OH like a house on fire and the outcome was that rather than just trying to sell the house, she found herself partly looking after her. She was given a complete photocopy of the files (don't ask why, I do not have a clue!) that explain this story, which I am gleaning this account from.
It includes extracts from other legal instances used by the son's lawyer and the court the claim went to, the file is 486 pages! Fortunately, the first 12 are a running summary of the process. So, there are a few extracted samples of people who are US citizens, long term residents here who had no right of claim for pensions. One that stands out is a research and development chemist who worked for Rhône-Poulenc/Rhodia in Pennsylvania who was brought to France to work for them here when he was 52, he was retired by Hoechst who then owned the company aged 64. France would not give him a pension and he was only entitled to a small US pension because he had only paid into the system for 24 years there. He stayed in France because he had settled here and having never married and no living family in the USA had no real reason to return there. In the end, he was given a 'gift' of money by Rhodia that he could invest to live from interest. His US pension, the gift and interest were all subject to taxes so that he was simply scraping through. The authorities here wanted to return him to the USA because he did not have sufficient means of supporting himself and despite him owning a home here with no ties in the USA found that he would be better off there. The Agreement on Social Security between the United States of America and the French Republic of 1987, Article 12 is cited several times. The problem here is that it is only an extract and I cannot find the case online, thus not see what the decision was. However, back to the starting point, it is a minefield and despite the agreement nothing is clear cut.
Very good question Catherine. Indeed this thread is very helpful. When we talk, (I plan to be home all day tomorrow if you're available, you have my #), I'd like to touch on the dual citizenship thing. I'm still thinking about when someone said that she'd worked a very good job in France for something like 14 years and paid into the system and wasn't going to get hardly anything in retirement funds. I can't find it now, harumph! Is it because she's not a Fr. citizen I wonder? I'm going to be asking that, as well as other questions when I go to the Fr. consulate and the Fr. embassy soon. I'll let you know what I find out.
Hi Jo, may I ask in what part of the Dordogne you reside and how much time you have spent there "at a time?" My destination is the Dordogne or possibly Clermont-Ferrrand, where I have family. I am interested in your perspective as I do understand that living there will be far different from visiting for three weeks every two years, which is what I have done since I was a child.
Cordially,
Catherine
Hi Mike, do I understand this to mean that neither US SSI nor 401K/IRA funds (on which I too will be living) are taxable by France? I was just wondering about this very topic and ran across your post...this thread is proving very helpful although w/dual American and French citizenship some of my concerns vary from those of expats from the UK and Australia. Like Deborah and Kirsten I am planning 3-5 years ahead - unless I win the Powerball, that is~
Thanks,
Catherine
Hi Kirsten,
I'm retired in Ireland now but lived "over there" in France for 14 years. Don't get me wrong, France and it's people are great, it is just the system and the mentality of the State that made me leave.
I was co-owner of a stud farm with my husband and also ran my own business, completely un-related to agriculture, yet had to pay two lots of cotisations per year, one to the MSA and one to the RSI. In the UK or Ireland as only one system of NI operates, I would have only had one agency to deal with. This is just one example among many others that got to me in the end.
And no one will ever be convicted of any wrongdoing when we went bust, why? because of the old boys network that always comes into play here.
The main reason why we all keep quiet and don't rock the boat and accept all the cutbacks and taxes imposed on us is probably a lot of the population have a few little guilty secrets in their cupboards in the way of hidden assets they want to keep away from the revenue commissioners. The last local elections told the government what we think of them but at the moment we have no real alternative so rock and hard place come to mind.
Where I live, in the North West, most of us are law abiding, there is the odd bonfire, untaxed tractor and unlicensed dog but that's about it.
True. I always feel that I’m a guest here. That’s not an unpleasant feeling because I feel welcome. I regard even my, sometimes fraught, interactions with the Bureaucracy as a “fun” challenge. I’ve “won” more interactions than I’ve lost 
C'est ça.
Well I don’t see any of that where I live Deborah. Tourism is important here in the Var and things have been tight for quite a few years now with numbers down etc. but the folk I know are just getting on with it. Government services do not seem to have suffered and there are still road improvement works etc. showing capital expenditure. The Var is a rightwing department (not far right, just UMP right) but I don’t see any strengthening of that sentiment. All in all I believe that France, particularly my neck of the woods, is a still a very pleasant place to live. The language alone is a pleasure
Also particularly apt for Irish politicians.
That sounds all the more like Westminster since 2010. With the Anglo-Saxon grin and bear it attitude instead from the nation sitting on their hands and taking it by the generous ladle load. At least you can say your lot did it first ;-)
Jennie, I’m Irish and still have a home in Dublin. I lived in The UK, in France in the Middle east and Africa and travelled extensively for business and pleasure. I know my native County very well. Probably our greatest national failing (and maybe our greatest national strength) is that we don’t face reality. There is a “ah sure t’will do” attitude and an enormous inability to take constructive criticism which allows serious issues to fester until they explode. An example is when a well regarded Irish economist stated publicly that we were in a property bubble back in 2007 the Prime Minister of Ireland (a particularly stupid man, even amongst his peers) stated in a Q&A session after a speech that people who were worried about the boom should consider committing suicide and the boom was only getting “boomier”. Well that attitude cost the taxpayers of Ireland (of which I was one) 60 billion euros. That’s a lot for a little nation of 4 million souls.
BTW, nobody, that is NOBODY has been convicted of ANY wrong doing relating to our National Bankruptcy. That in itself is a scandal. The majority of the perpetrators, for example the senior executives of the banks the went bust are all on super pensions. The ex CEOs of the two largest have pensions of over 400k. The Regulator that watched the crash and burn got a super lump sum and a super pension to go with it.
My advice regarding the hip replacement is to take out private health cover. I suspect the waiting period for the operation to be covered by them could be shorter than waiting for a public slot but you should check. There is a reason that forty per cent of the Irish population have private health cover and many would prefer to cut back on other necessities than let it lapse. I even still have it and I only spend a month or so in Ireland a year.
BTW, I can assure you the MOST of the population do not comply with the laws and that includes the politicians and the Public Sector who make the laws Another example, take a look at people with dozens of convictions getting probation in the courts every day. It’s a joke.
Hi Jeannie,
You said, "I came back here to retire, something impossible to do in France and I earned big money there but also paid more than my fair share in taxes."
I'm confused. Where is 'here', I thought 'here' was Fr, then you said 'impossible to do in Fr', did you mean 'possible' perhaps? (reading further I'm thinking you're in Fr). Then you said 'I earned big money there', I don't know where 'there' is? France? Australia? From whence Deborah comes?
I don't mean to nit-pick, just trying to understand. Am I daft? Maybe everyone else understands, I can be a bit thick, (I've just had 1 cup o' coffee at this point) :/
John, it depends on your circumstances and the kind of lifestyle you want. Also in the mix is if it is the country of your birth you have a yearning to live there especially if you left because of the need to earn a living in your youth.
I came back here to retire, something impossible to do in France and I earned big money there but also paid more than my fair share in taxes. Thankfully, I am in good health but do need a routine hip replacement. I didn't wait long for my first hospital appointment and found the hospital very good. How long I will have to wait for the op itself is another question. Living here I find very easy, life is pleasurable once more and we have the philosophy of "sure it'll be just grand" the same as the remainder of the country.
Most of the population do incidentally comply with the laws and regulations.