I really don’t think that the stresses involved in having and keeping a job are unique to France. I also think that people in their late 30s and early 40s are in an age group that is likely to talk their about work situation a lot as they are often consolidating their position and are concerned with not only their current position but the promotions that will put them into a better position before they are overtaken by the younger competition snapping at their heels. As the words of the song say, It’s the same the whole world over…
I know it’s a generalisation but in the U.K. it’s rare for a couple of that age to rely on one breadwinner as two incomes are required to maintain a basic standard of living.
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Oh heck Mark that’s simply not true in all cases - it very much depends on the employer and the job in question! Proven experience / track record is highly valued.
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Huh ??? No I did not so stop misquoting me. I posted a topic using the headline of a newspaper article without any question mark! Stop trolling @anon44939055.
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No, no, no.
Your work experience is secondary to the qualification.
It is not like the UK. Have a look at French employment websites.
The French move to the UK with a low grade qualification in nothing and start as a waiter and can quite easily become the manager if they work hard. In France, it does not work like that. Why do you think the French move to the UK for work ?
You could be CEO of a French multinational and decide one day you want to become an estate agent or work in a shop. In order to do that, you need to get the right qualification.
Going back to Davids point:
'[quote=“Aquitaine, post:21, topic:16618”]
I really don’t think that the stresses involved in having and keeping a job are unique to France
[/quote]
Yes but, France has very high unemployment, and you have to retrain (even if you can do the job) if you want a change of career. One of the biggest growth industries in France is ‘formation’.[quote=“Aquitaine, post:21, topic:16618”]
I know it’s a generalisation but in the U.K. it’s rare for a couple of that age to rely on one breadwinner as two incomes are required to maintain a basic standard of living
[/quote]
It is very difficult logistically to have two bread winners in France if you have kids. Think about Wednesday afternoon !!! Who looks after the kids ?
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But I thought we were particularly talking about rural/small town France weren’t we?
[quote=“Anna, post:1”, topic:16618"]
And I don’t think lifestyle stresses really exist outside of Paris and other big cities[/quote]
Rural France accounts for a minority of the population, true enough, but 30 per cent or whatever is still 30 per cent and they can’t be ignored completely as if they didn’t exist. I’m very uncomfortable with this “is rural France representative of France, no of course it isn’t” routine, it’s exactly the same as saying that the UK is represented by London and the south east, perhaps at a push we might condescend to recognise the existence of Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, but the rest of England, Scotland, Wales and NI is of no importance. And that’s a big factor in why the UK is so divided. I think, and hope, that France does recognise that there is more to it than Ile de France and the other big towns.
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They are ignored. That is why MLP has been so successful in the election.
There was a report during the election of a rural town in Dept 58 that has always voted the socialist party that just swung to MLP because they felt they were being ignored. All the shops closed down, the young leaving etc.
I agree, but I am not sure how Macron can turn them around.
There is also an elitism in France with regards to education that does not exist in the UK. If you have not been to the right universities or business schools your career will be limited regardless of how good you are.
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Actually it does work like that in France, very much so, because once you have started work as a waiter you are entitled to ongoing vocational training every year, funded by your employer and the state. As you say, France is very big on training. So once you’re on the payroll, if you’re motivated you will keep training and acquire better and better qualifications and promotion will follow if you’re patient.
I get lots of CVs to translate and very often the CV consists of a series of four or five different job titles with the same employer as the person improved their qualifications, took on more responsibility and rose through the ranks.
You seem to think that the need for training is a major obstacle that stops people in their tracks. It isn’t. The French seem to like training.
But she lost, and now the party’s fallen to pieces. I wouldn’t call that successful. Mostly her votes were a protest vote against Hollande.
The big difference is that France has regional councils with their own budgets that can take decisions for their region. They can decide to build a new trunk road or a new airport or whatever. Of course there’s bad feeling because the regional budgets are squeezed. But AFAIK that devolution is totally lacking in the UK, it’s central government that decides on new rail links, new motorways, new airports, and some regions get virtually no infrastructure investment from one decade to the next.
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Mark you can stick your fingers in your ears and go ting-a-ling-a-loo as much as you like. That is quite simply not my experience of the French job market - having been offered 3 senior level CDI contracts over the past few years. No mention of, or requirement for any ‘proof’ of qualifications. My CV and references did the job.
Maybe you should steer away from making sweeping generalisations - it gives an unbalanced message. Mind you…
“It is very difficult logistically to have two bread winners in France if you have kids. Think about Wednesday afternoon !!! Who looks after the kids ?”
This is complete nonsense, I have 5 children and have always worked full-time both in France and elsewhere - it was CONSIDERABLY more difficult to organise child-care in the UK than in France. Wherever you are, you just have to be organised.
"There is also an elitism in France with regards to education that does not exist in the UK."
That is rather naïve and I am surprised you really think this. Elitism in education exists absolutely everywhere, a lot depends on where you went to university in the UK or which grande école you went to in France, there’s really no difference from that point of view, at least when you start your career. Doors will open more easily for you depending on where you were educated, wherever you are, but after that you have to prove yourself and experience is what counts.
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In the UK you can leave university with a Geography degree and apply to go on a management trainee course to become a bank manager. That does not happen in France. There is a different mindset. That is what I am talking about.
When I was working in the UK we had loads of French people working at our organisation that had qualifications that were not relevant to the job. They were employed because they could speak French and we would train them up of which many became managers. In France that would never happen, they would employ someone with the right qualification and useless English even if English was the most important factor for employing them. I know how from talking to people how things work.
Different mindset. That is the difference between the UK and France and why their economy is struggling.
Likewise with setting up a business. People are put of from setting up a business because of they have to pass this course or that course to do so. Then the taxes involved in running a business makes it highly unappealing.
MLP won six seats yesterday. Before she only had 1. That is historical. Furthermore, she did not do to badly in the election. She could have quite easily won if Macron did not come along. We could quite easily be debating ‘is France the laughing stock of Europe’.
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As Ian Dunt of politics.co.uk says:
"So they have confirmed it. Britain will start talks with the EU on Monday. We are now about to go into the most challenging negotiations since the Second World War with no government, no overall aim, no plan to achieve it, no functioning department to deliver it, no confidence at home or abroad with which to pass it, no trade expert capacity to negotiate it, and no time to manage it.
This is beyond even the bleakest warnings of Remainers in the days after the vote. We must now face the very real possibility of an unmitigated disaster with very severe damage to our quality of life and a painful spectacle of humiliation on the international stage."
continued in link
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That is because the purpose, nature and structure of higher education is very different in the UK and in France. You have to compare like with like.
Apart from medics, vets, and lawyers practically none of my friends do jobs for which their UK degrees specifically qualified them, BUT the same is true of my friends who went through grandes écoles in France.
My old university in UK didn’t seek to do vocational training but rather encouraged people to think and be articulate, it has the lowest rate of unemployment for graduates anywhere I think; the same goes for the grandes écoles: my daughters are more likely to be running the country than doing actual engineering later on.
In France if you want to be a bank manager you do a BTS banque and then work your way up, if you want to be a merchant banker you do HEC etc. I don’t know how you get into high-street banking in GB but I strongly suspect it isn’t via the same route as becoming a merchant banker, which I do know about 
.
It depends. A lot of people don’t work because it is not cost effective to do so. Nannies, school activities, school meals is very expensive. Factor in also that salaries are not very high in France. You need to be a ‘cadre’ level to make it cost effective. The problem with that is they you will be expected to work all hours and see less of your children. Sometimes I think the Wednesday afternoon thing was introduced to make employment figures look better than they are.
There is more ‘elitism’ in France than the UK especially in multinationals…your schooling means everything.
Even politics !!! MLP would not be where she is today if she did not come from a very rich and elitist family. I bet not many of her voters know that !!!
At least the UK version of the FN (whatever that is) is full of working class idiots. LOL
Just out of curiosity Mark, where were you educated?
Re getting jobs without qualifications, I got a job with a major training organisation in Paris with experience but no teaching or training qualifications whatsoever. Basically, because I was native English and I somehow managed to come across as dynamic, flexible, reliable, conscientious etc. Most of my colleagues had qualifications but not all. If they want you they’ll overlook the lack of qualifications and if you actually need qualifications for legal reasons they’ll make sure you get them. If they don’t want you, they’ll say “no sorry you don’t have the right qualifications”. French employers are like any other employers, they know what they’re looking for and their priority is to get the right person for the job. Usually that person will have qualifications, because usually the person who will be best at the job is also a person who has a genuine interest in that area of work and has taken the trouble to get the right skills and qualifications, rather than a butterfly brain who thought they wanted to be a geographer but now they quite fancy being a bank manager instead. But if exceptionally a person comes along and demonstrates real aptitude and commitment but has no qualis, that won’t stand in the way. “Sérieux” is a quality they seem to value highly, they like people who have mapped out their career path and who have clear objectives. Fremch employers make a bigger investment in their staff than UK employers do, what with training obligations and all, so they want a two-way commitment, they don’t want to invest in people like your geography graduate who is likely to decide after a year or so that being a bank manager is a bit boring actually and he’s ready to try something different.
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“A lot of people don’t work because it is not cost effective to do so. Nannies, school activities, school meals is very expensive. Factor in also that salaries are not very high in France. You need to be a ‘cadre’ level to make it cost effective. The problem with that is they you will be expected to work all hours and see less of your children. Sometimes I think the Wednesday afternoon thing was introduced to make employment figures look better than they are.”
Gosh thank you Mark for educating me, I suppose what I said above didn’t register (that I have 5 children and work full-time). All of my children are still in full-time education, by the way.
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Aston Uni…that is where I met my French wife many moons ago. She went to a ‘grande ecole/business school’ in Strasbourg and she did a year at my uni.
OK, we aren’t going to have the same view of elitism in UK universities because we haven’t had the same experience.
I am guessing you have a very well paid job.
5 children in FT education !!! 5 flats to rent ??? Living expenses, schooling fees !!!
I’ve been around a bit. Was at college in Oxford.