May i ask why?
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There are about 3 million second homes in France, and only around 250,000 are owned by foreigners. Of those 75% are “European” split between Holland, UK, Italy, Ireland in the main with chunks owned by other nationalities. So ok, it’s more than a few hundred, but even 60,000 or so is really not sufficiently significant to devote a large amount of negotiating capital on. Fish are much more important.
The more important issue is those who work from a french base (and pay taxes in France) but need to be able to wander around the EU for their work.
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Because my neighbours are and they havent been able to get here till now, their property needs a lot of attention despite having a gardener/handyman and they cant run their business in the 90 out of 180 days . No visitors this year at all and paying taxes on 3 buildings. They have difficult decisions to make. If we had a gite business we would follow Stellas advice on this board.
Your neighbours situation is in the (I’d imagine) very small minority of gite owners in France.
@Gabriella @almondbiscuit Sorry if what I said sounded mean, it wasn’t intended as such - what I meant was keeping British people happy is probably a big deal for the UK but much less of one for France, simply because I think the welfare of UK citizens even abroad is primarily the concern of the UK government, France is more concerned with its own citizens relatively fewer of whom have second homes in the UK so reciprocity doesn’t really come into it.
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Peter you are right…Quote,unless your tax affairs are complex and UK-anchored…
Well this has a lot to do with our decision, they are complex, but our tax affairs should be simpler soon as we are fast disposing of assets and settling up cgt. Stella’s advice is appreciated too and it may be the route we follow is there is no softening of the 90/180.
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Jane Jones, i take your point now, thanks for doing the numbers. I agree 60,000 is probably an insignificant number when it comes to negotiations. I will be less hopeful.
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Interesting points of view, thank you for the help, something we may need to look into.
But, but, but this is the Brexit people voted for!
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Please amend your membership details to include your full name as per our T&C. Thanks.
I’m surprised about no visitors. We had none until mid June, but phone has been ringing off the hook ever since.
We have stayed in a few gîtes owned by non-resident British over the years, and have always presumed they were cash-in-hand unregistered businesses as they wanted us to pay into UK accounts, and never gave us receipts with Siret numbers and so on. I think that sort of thing will become much more difficult.
I agree completely with your sentiment. The UK has voted and they’re out. You can’t then expect to have all the original compliments…that’s the end of it. We all still have to apply, and I am a lot newer to this than you, but feel I have the tools in place. The fact that they chose to leave is raw to me but that’s another story - they will certainly regret it, in my humble opinion. Like you say, cake and eat it, errrrrr no!
Don’t panic. What is the French Government going to do if the UK Government decide to apply the same rules to the 27,000 French who work in the City of London?
It’s just sabre rattling.
After 2021 the UK isn’t going to allow unemployed and retired people to come in and stay without applying for a visa either. Many of the French who work in the City are posted WORKERS, or have settled status. Workers with jobs can come into France. There aren’t any sabres to rattle as French people don’t tend to have holiday homes in the Uk or plan to retire there!
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We like many others are flipping our residence to France. It’s a simple matter for people who are already spending up to half their time in France. To qualify as resident you only need spend a minimum of six months a year in France & then as a Brit you you can come & go as you like from the UK. It’s perfectly possible to have a foot in both camps & continue as before. You do not need to choose between France & the UK.
If you are a Brit who divides their time between their homes in France & the UK then you will almost certainly remain tax resident in the UK unless you severely curtail your stays in the UK to below 90 days a year. While French resident but UK tax resident you will pay UK tax on UK income & UK tax rules apply to UK financial products like ISAs, SIPPs etc As a resident of France you are required to submit a tax return declaring your worldwide income but under the UK-France Double Taxation Convention if tax has been paid in the UK then you cannot be taxed again in France. This flowchart from KPMG explains the workings of HMRC’s Statutory Residence Test. https://home.kpmg/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/statutory-residence-test-flowchart.pdf
After five years spending a minimum of six months a year in France you will be entitled to permanent residence after which there is no minimum period each year you must physically be in France & can even be totally absent from France for up to five years without losing your permanent right of residence.
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Again isn’t this looking at it from an english perspective? If you are seeking a residency then your french tax return will be looked at and the french tax authorities may decide you are not resident despite spending more than 183 days here. Or decide you are resident and expect you to declare and pay tax here on everything except exempt categories, and that will include things like ISA income. And pay social charges.
Just like in the UK residency is not just a question of spending 183 days here. So if you retain a family home in the UK, continue to work in the UK during the time you are there (if you work while in France you definitely have to pay tax here) and have the centre of your economic interests in the UK then your french residency can be called into question. And you can be denied a resident’s card.
(Isn’t it just 2 years absence once you have been here 5 years and have your first 10 year card? Haven’t checked but thought you had to have been here for 10 years to get the ability to leave for periods of up to 5 years.)
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Good luck with that but you may find it is not quite so simple.
In a case of duall residence the tax treaty decides where taxes are paid and where worldwide income is declared.
If the France UK tax treaty deems you resident in France then you declare worldwide income in France and to hmrc you only declare income that is taxable in the uk. Your pension, investment income etc is taxable in France, you pay social charges on certain foreign income and you are subject to French fiscal law including succession.
If the tax treaty deems you to be uk resident you declare worldwide income to hmrc and to the fisc you only declare income that is taxable in France. Your pension and bank interest is taxed in the uk, you are subject to uk tax law and France will not accept a residents income declaration from you. If you have income that is taxable in France such as gites you declare it as a non resident in France and you declare it in the Uk as part of your worldwide income.
You would never normally be in a position where you declare worldwide income in one country but you are subject to the tax laws of a different country.
In your case if you spend equal time in each and have equal economic and family ties to both you would be deemed uk resident under the tax treaty because if everything else is equal you are deemed tax resident of the country of which you are a national.
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Residence & fiscal residence are separate & unconnected. You do not have to be tax resident in France to be ordinarily resident. The protections of the Withdrawal Agreement allow Brits to take advantage of their EU citizens rights to Freedom of Movement & qualify for residence. This has nothing to do with where you pay tax. You pay tax or not is irrelevant to your ordinary residence. You must make a tax return declaring your worldwide income but whether.
You cannot be denied a CdS because you are not fiscally resident. I don’t think that this is even true of TCN but it’s certainly not the case with EU (& ex-EU) citizens exerting FOM. It’s very clearly laid down in the WA what Brits must do to be given residence & there is no leeway for arbitrary refusal.
The WA allows Brits with permanent residence in an EU state (& EU citizens with permanent residence in the UK) to be absent for up to 5 years without losing permanent residence rights. Permanent residence is granted after five years of minimum six months a year residence in France.