That’s interesting to hear… makes sense if one has permission and insurance.
So much of what we read relates to Owning the car… difficult to pin down the option to drive someone else’s… there is talk of the borrowing-driver possibly getting fined, but doesn’t say what for… so I’m thinking the fine might well relate to any lack of insurance.
ah well… the debate rumbles on.
That is interesting but I wonder did you also research this with the French offices? I do not even know which office you would approach about this but it strikes me that if any issues are going to arise it is on the French side and it is not really up to DVLA or UK insurance companies to decide what is and not acceptable to France. If as has been suggested France has restrictions on its residents driving foreign registered cars, then the fact DVLA does not have a problem with it, does not change the fact of it being French law (if it is).
Fair point. I find phone conversations more complicated in French, so haven’t spoken with any governmental agencies. However I have checked with three insurance companies (I insure car with one, campervan with another and motorcycles with a third) and a Gendarme (chief in a town in our region. He rides a motorcycle and joins us on rides occasionally.)
Many posts seem to confuse ownership with driving. No, a french resident cannot own a foreign registered vehicle. This post is about driving, not owning.
In each case the advice was the same. First two insurance companies confirmed that my wife is insured to drive my French registered vehicles with my permission. The other company confirmed it is the motorcycles that are insured, not me, and that a friend from England will be insured on my bike provided he has the appropriate licence and my permission. They did say it depends on the insurer whether the cover drops to third party only under those circumstances, but they are still road legal. Finally the Gendarme was less formal and I’ll paraphrase. His reaction was not to be silly. Foreigners drive French hire cars all the time. Of course English people can drive someone’s French registered car with permission. But they must not break the speed limit (unless they are on a motorbike and with him) or fail to stop at a stop sign! And the same applies to a French resident driving an English car.
I do not condone his comments about speeding on a motorbike!
I recognise this research does not carry the weight a conversation with a government department might have, but if we are properly insured in each others vehicles that gives me confidence that there’s no problem.
Insurance company staff are known to give information that is misleading or inaccurate. and relying on such information carries a risk.
In the UK there are various categories relating to a vehicle’s “owner”.
Owner ( the person/company which owns the vehicle e.g. manufacturer/finance/lease company)
Registered Keeper ( the person/company in whose name the vehicles is registered)
Keeper (the person in day to day charge of the vehicle)
Driver (person driving at the time)
My local UK Roads Policing Unit is seizing foreign registered cars on a regular basis because the DRIVER is a UK resident.
Hire cars come under different legislation regarding foreign use
How would they know your residency? I don’t have a cds yet and my driving licence has my old english address.
By enquiring 'cos that’s what policemen do? In most cases it’s not that difficult to distinguish between a resident and a tourist. In some cases the drivers were wearing the uniform of a UK company!
I understand that if you’ve applied for residency you will have the e-mail attestation confirming that application. That is proof of residency until your cds arrives (mine arrived today) or until 1st January 2021. If you choose to conceal your residency that may be possible, you can show a British Passport and British driving licence, provided the gendarme doesn’t do a follow up check on any residency database (presume there is one.)
Of course, things can become complicated if one tries to say what is “thus” in one country is “thus” in another …
Things are seldom that straight forward.
So if we went to the UK to visit my MIL we couldn’t use her car while we were there?
I think it’s the other way round @toryroo - in the UK she couldn’t drive your car? No, that doesn’t make sense either… I’m getting very confused here…
I think you can* - but you couldn’t drive a UK registered car in France - correct?
(*just consider a hire car)
As long as the insurers agreed to cover you, why not?
The problem is about driving a foreign registered car in your country of residence. The UK is not your country of residence is it?
Although I have heard that some insurers are funny about covering non UK residents.
Yes I believe that is the case. UK resident in UK+non UK car in UK=No.
Take your point about insurance companies not necessarily being reliable sources of legal advice, that’s why I felt it worth cross referencing three different companies, it carries more weight when all three give the same advice, then checked that with a gendarme who also gave the same advice. Clearly a gendarme can be wrong, that possibility applies both to the gendarme I consulted and to any gendarme who contradicts the advice I got and claims it is illegal for non residents to drive French registered cars and vica versa.
Would be interesting to know more about the UK roads police seizing foreign registered cars. If the advice I received is correct that would be appropriate if the driver could not show proper reasons and permission for driving that car. Clearly each case would go to court, so I’d be interested in precisely what charges were brought and whether every case was prosecuted successfully. Given a Driver can also be the Owner/Registered Keeper/etc. I’m assuming in the cases you referenced in each case the driver was only a driver… in which case what was their relationship with the owner, where was the owner, did they have clear permission to drive the vehicle, was it properly insured for them to drive and was the vehicle road legal in the UK?
I accept your point that everything I’ve said about the law is based on conversations with people in more or less authoritative positions. I have no written statutory references. So there is indeed a risk I have been misled, that the people I spoke to were misinformed and/or that I misunderstood all the conversations. If anyone actually has any reference to a relevant published statute in either France of England I would appreciate a link!
My resting point is that if we are ever challenged I am prepared to argue our case on the basis that we have made our best efforts to establish the law and are operating within the advice we have been given. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but if your attempts to establish what the law is are sufficient, then it can be reasonable to argue that a failure to find what the law actually is is not your fault (if a speed limit sign is missing you are allowed to argue you could not be expected to know of the change in speed limit at that point.) Not a guarantee of freedom, but you can’t live your life not doing anything just in case there’s a law against it that you can’t find out about.
Must say, I’ve searched the French sites and they keep talking about the Owner… NOT the Driver…
so, until someone comes up with a link which clearly defines what the Non-Owner cannot do… and why…
I reckon that Permission from Owner, Insurance and valid Driving License and the car is road legal = OK for French Resident to drive the car in France, even if it is registered in UK.
Two separate matters…insurance cover and residency rule for drivers.
My friend was told about the latter:
If you are a UK domiciled person you cannot drive a French reg (or any none uk reg) car in the UK and if you are a French domiciled person you cannot drive a UK car or other in France.
This isn’t Brexit related but because authorities want to stop none local reg’ cars being driven by locals as in that case they cannot trace a local driver for traffic infringements as the car is not reg in the country of infringement…at least that what was explained to him when he was looking to return to UK.
Police, particularly traffic ones, are aware of these regulations.
The reason for the restrictions seems to be based on preventing the purchase of vehicles in a country with low tax/duty rates for use in country with higher rates.
There are references in both the Vienna Convention 1968 and a later Convention related to tax regimes within the EU about using vehicles in foreign countries. I think claiming that these only relate to the ownership rather than the driveris misleading. A vehicle may be owned by a corporate organisation which cannot be a driver but the legislation still applies to usage for which the driver is the agent of such a company.
The twitter feed which carries the examples of the seizures to which I referred is available HERE scroll down the various reports to find those related to foreign vehicle use.
I’m sure that there must be appropriate legislation being used but the usual reference is insurance related. Once the vehicle is seized it can be reclaimed on production of suitable paperwork and there have been a couple of cases where the same person has been stopped for a second time. If the driver a foreign registered car claims to be resident the country of registration and is only a tourist then s/he would need to prove that fact.
I’ve been following this subject for a few yew years after Northamptonshire police ran an extensive campaign against misuse of foreign vehicles by people resident in the UK.
Just to add to the above post.
From a Council Directive regarding taxation …
Temporary importation of certain means of transport for private use
Where a private vehicle, caravan, pleasure boat, private aircraft, tricycle or bicycle is imported temporarily, the item imported shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1 for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that: (a) the individual importing such goods: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;
(bb) employs the means of transport in question for his private use;
(b) the said means of transport is not disposed of or hired out in the Member State of temporary importation or lent to a resident of that State.
Is a UK resident allowed to drive his UK car to his holidy home in France… for his 2 week holiday???
Yes, because he’s not resident in France.