Maybe it should go in the “Good old days” thread, but when we were kids getting measles, mumps, chicken pox etc was considered a normal part of childhood, and it meant at least 2 weeks off school - and massively boosted our immune systems.
I am not sure the good old days and Diphtheria Measles and Polio should be used in the same sentence. The suffering those horrible disease caused have nearly been irradicated. To me the freedom of choice also applies to inoculated people refusing to attend schools with those who have not been inoculated.
I know what you mean Mark… although I cannot be certain which ailments it referred to…
But I do recall times when we were all deliberately brought together with a child who was ill… in the hope that we would catch (whatever) young enough for it to be comparatively mild.
I know a lady who caught chickenpox in her 40’s and it was horrendous… my siblings and I… we had it en mass (all under 9)… I remember Mum making us wear gloves to stop the scratching…(didn’t work)
Why would they refuse to go to school, surely they would feel that they are protected?
Innoculation only protects you to a certain degree, if you come in contact with a child who had not been inoculated you can still catch the disease. If we all get inoculated then the disease spread is massively reduced. The basic principle I was trying to state but was a bit clumsy about is this. If people don’t want to innoculate their children then send all those children to a separate school well away from those of us who take this responsibility to society seriously. Then they will actually see the risk in new eyes as these diseases will get s foothold in this school and children will suffer terribly as they used to many years ago.
Dr Andy Boyd
Well that’s just ridiculous…if you think that vaccinations work then your “inoculated” child is in absolute no danger whatsoever from my unvaccinated child…fact is there is not a single vaccine nor even worse combined vaccine has ever been proven safe or effective…quite the contrary…Measles is a self limiting 5 day dis-ease…research is showing that there is 5 times the risk of a child suffering an adverse reaction to the MMR including seizures than there is to naturally acquiring measles and fighting it off…Polio was virtually eradicated -before-the introduction of the vaccine…Please don’t infer that people choosing not to vaccinate after much research and soul searching are in any way contributing to the present mess that is “mandatory vaccination” as its wholly innacurate…I’m really surprised that France is going down the mandatory vaccination route when so much research in France has resulted in a low uptake due to being informed of the dangers…If mandatory takes hold in France then expect an unprecedented rise in autism in the next decade…
Helen, there is no credible research that shows the incidence of complications of the MMR vaccine is worse than naturally acquired measles - which, as I have pointed out before, is far from a benign disease even in childhood. If the vaccine were more dangerous than the disease it would not be acceptable.
However if you would like to post a link or paper I’ll look it over.
Also as to polio being virtually eradicated before the introduction of a vaccine I’m afraid that is simply incorrect - the Salk vaccine was developed in 1952 and came into use in the UK in 1956, the Sabin (oral) vaccine was introduced in the UK in 1962. Following the introduction of the Salk vaccine cases dropped off sharply so by the time the Sabin vaccine was introduced the incidence was low but this was due to the previous vaccination programme.
Again - if you have a credible source to back up your claim please post it.
Polio has metamorphosised into a previously unknown dis-ease…a flaccid paralysis…It’s notable that previously unaccountable forcing parents (and animal guardians) into signing non disclosure agreements in secret vaccine courts have just now paid out $1.5 million to the parents of a vaccine damaged child…We are living in a technological matrix where evidence can be communicated and then deleted in the blink of an eye if it doesn’t “conform”…I’ve got to sleep now but I hope to respond a la matin…It’s regrettable of course it is when any mother loses their child to a vaccine or to a whollly preventable war or to a lack of water or to a lack of previously targeted and annihilated hospitals but I have a problem with the word “regrettable”…I was never cut out to be an ineffectual talking head amongst the UN…The evidence is no secret…,.,it’s all out there…We do a great disservice to those seeking the truth and those who have first hand knowledge of the truth about vaccines by trying to get them to shut up and conform…
I will look through the video tonight when I have time - however the first thing I did was look up the good doctor Humphries to see if she has any published papers on the subject - the first hit was reasonably good run through (and refutation of) her theories about measles vaccination, several of her ideas seem to crop up in Helen’s posts.
I will look through the video on polio to see if the ideas are any different and try to work through whether they are good science but in the interim, in the interests of expediency I present the link below for interested parties to read.
Helen - will you at least try to read through this page with an open mind?
Thankyou for that and I have read it with an open mind and note that she still refers to Dr Andrew Wakefield as discredited… http://vaxtruth.org/2012/03/the-polio-vaccine-part-2-2/
I didn’t look at the date on the piece that I linked however Andrew Wakefield’s “research” was, and as far as I know remains, discredited.
Not ignoring your link but will have to wait until i have more time.
That’s ok…I have to go Super U myself…x Daniel Neides, MD - A Doctor's Perspective - YouTube
not so Dr. Andy Boyd, in fact it is the vaccinated who pose the greatest risk to society because their vaccinations cause the disease to mutate from the form it was - the form that in many cases is recognised by a healthy natural immune system which has the capacity to repel it - into a new form which the vaccinated ‘shed’ into society at large.
Nothing causes diseases to mutate, any mutations will happen anyway.
Paul, it is not correct to say that there is no credible research …etc etc
It is futile for us to try to outdo eath other by quoting references because one obviously is very selective on the references quoted. You own graph is from the so called health protection agency - hardly neutral when it comes to promoting vaccination.
There is so much concern about possible links between especially MMR and autism that you would think the health agencies would be falling over them selves to prove that there is no link. But they won’t do the trials.
Ask yourself why, when autism is increasing at a rocketing rate, there are almost no incidences of it in groups who generally do not vaccinate - people like the Amish for exaple.
Ask yourself why the govenments are not doing the trials comparing rates of autism in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people. You would think that they would want to close the debate once an for all. But they won’t because their house of cards would fall down.
Well I can say that there is no credible research because there isn’t any.
The Amish are a poor model because there aren’t very many of them (about quarter of a million in the US/Canada), they live in relatively isolated groups and they are famously shy of anything “modern” including healthcare so they just aren’t going to get autism diagnosed unless it is severe.
As to “won’t do trials” - OK, how would you design such a trial, bearing in mind that a) it has to be ethical and b) has to be capable of answering the question that you have in mind.
The only way to really answer the question would be a randomised double blind trial of MMR vs placebo over a fairly large population base. Because vaccination is generally accepted as safe and effective you would never get this past an ethics committee.
White paper on vaccine safety… http://icandecide.org/white-papers/VaccineSafety-Version-1.0-October-2-2017.pdf
not so Paul.
An assesment of the relative incidence of Autism (and its related illneses) ) between a vaccinated group and an unvaccinated group could be set up and executed very quickly and simply - with a more extensive study to follow if the early findings suggest the necessity of it. A placebo group is not necessary because there exists already a cohort of both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. The authorities will not do this because they are so afraid that the outcome of such a study will completely destroy their theories.
Better for them to ensure that the maximum number of children are vaccinated so such a study will not be possible in the future !
Unfortunately that doesn’t, to coin a phrase, “cut it”.
The technique you describe is recognised as a valid research tool - it is called a cohort study and can be done both prospectively, as you describe and retrospectively.
The problem is that it is not powerful enough on its own to prove an association - and let us not forget that proving an association is itself not enough to prove a causal relationship.
The difficulty is making sure that the two populations - in this case vaccinated and unvaccinated are in other respects identical which is very difficult for cohort studies, it is also difficult to eliminate bias - especially confounding factors in cohort studies.
Ultimately the only way to avoid these problems is to take both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals from the same population prospectively and on a random basis. However as I said you’d never get it past an ethics committee and with good reason.
But as to a cohort study why are you using the excuse of “the authorities won’t do the study”? this is the age of crowdfunding after all and I’m sure that there are enough people against vaccination to fund the study that “they” won’t do.
On a slightly different tack I’m not a big believer in conspiracy theories - for the simple reason that maintaining a “secret conspiracy” to, for example “subjugate the masses” with vaccines (or whatever) is just too much bloody hard work. It is implausible that it would hang together and stay secret given the large number of people who would have to be “in on it”.