Love the picture of your dog…x 
Thanks Helen - sadly he’s no longer with us but I think about him every day…
Paw prints on your heart…I have many on mine too…((((((Hugz)))))
Very interesting discussion on France Inter just now : homoeopathy, mainstream medicine and psychotherapy slugging it out.
Well put V’ L’ 
12 hrs ago, re sterile argument, personally, I would never deny my children any protection available, having seen the results of not accepting it!
I should say that I’m all in favour of increased safety of all medicines, vaccines included but no effective medicine is side effect free. In fact the very fact that vaccination has been successful means that we need ever safer vaccines - as I said vaccines are of benefit if they convey immunity with less morbidity than the natural illness but when the chance of an unvaccinated individual acquiring a natural infection becomes low then the risks of the disease become “averaged out” so what is acceptable for the vaccine changes as well.
As to informed consent, OK yes but does wild type measles virus ask consent before it infects someone or does them harm?
Primum non nocere eh? The Hippocratic oath does not actually say “do no harm”, if it did no surgeon who had taken it could put knife to skin and hold the oath after all. Oh, and if you want to invoke the Hippocratic oath do not forget that the modern wording in use in many US medical schools includes the phrase “I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.” so any doctor who is in favour vaccination is only upholding part of an oath (s)he swore when they qualified.
As as aside - I actually think that it was Geoff who might have said this, or something similar - “the authorities” were ignoring research so as to push vaccination. Now I know that the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry have some pretty big blots on its copy book over this sort of thing (Thalidomide is a good stick to beat pharma with - though did you know it is now an established and successful treatment for myeloma?) - but really, if you had a treatment which is clearly of enormous benefit and for which the safety profile was good wouldn’t you want to use it as widely as possible.
Where were we?
Oh yes - mandatory vaccination. Should it be your choice to deny your child protection from infection with what can be a serious disease, should it be your choice to increase the risk to other individuals (mostly children) who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, should it be your choice to increase drag on healthcare resources by not preventing a preventable illness - complex questions as your decision has ramifications beyond you and your family.
and if you were bitten by a rabid animal? Vaccination or almost certain death should you contract rabies - which would you go for?
Of course it was! As I said a couple of times you would not get a study comparing vaccination with placebo past an ethics committee today. Trials are fairly tightly regulated - in part because of some real howlers in the past. If you want a true tale of evil doctors keeping patients in the dark to effectively experiment on them without their knowledge look up the “Tuskegee Syphilis Study” - that one’s a real eye opener 
One of the unethical elements in that study was that known, effective, treatment was withheld from some of the subjects - it would be the same in any study of vaccine vs placebo. One of the principals in modern clinical trials is that no subject should knowingly have their treatment compromised, so you tend to see trials which compare a known, effective treatment with a new treatment which, in good faith, we believe will be more effective, less toxic or both - thus is the art evolved slowly.
Some doctors are charlatans, who knew? 
Seriously they should have the book thrown at them for that sort of thing.
No manufacturing process is perfect - I’ve seen some of the reports and they sound quite alarming but I don’t know how big the risks actually are. You’d think that if it were at all significant the evidence would be obvious, not down in a rounding error somewhere. Can’t see an excuse for the glass shards though!
I also don’t know whether it was a microscopic amount picked up with some über sensitive test or close to or over recognised safety limits - that needs to be assessed and, now that we know it’s there appropriates standards set and checks made.
Again things were rather worse in the past and there have been known incidents of contamination which have been handled rather badly.
As to the protection from prosecution that the vaccine manufacturers enjoy, OK, yes I didn’t know about that - it’s in the US and I’m not sure whether it applies in the EU.
To an extent if we are talking about a, for want of a better term, natural adverse reaction - say a febrile seizure following vaccination. Fever is a common and expected reaction - you are presenting the body with an antigen after all. Febrile seizures are also common in children and it could just as well be any viral infection which caused it to happen (in most cases no harm will be done but it could happen that there was permanent damage) - is it fair to go after the vaccine manufacturer in that case - not sure to be honest.
If it’s contamination or manufacturing error - different kettle of fish and I think that they should be fair game for litigation.
PS if you want a worrying contamination story have you seen the one about plastic debris in bottled water?
A massive post from you Paul, I am afraid I cannot spend the time to address each item you cover, but I think it is time for me to just list the major things which cause me to be so questioning:
- the number of ‘mandatory’ vaccines has gone up very quickly to a high level (from 16 in the 1980’s to 38 currently for under 5’s)and at the same time the incidences of Autism and related illlnesses have skyrocketed.
- The ‘authorities’ will not do a study of vaccinated against non vaccinated children to see if a link to autism is found neither will they check to see what percentage of autistic children were fully vaccinated.
- Vaccinations are not subjected to the level of testing that other drugs are mandated to be. They are fast tracked into production - because -…
3)… Drug companies are immune from prosecution for drug related injuries so have no incentive to address the safety of their vaccines - most important of all; It is true that SOME vaccines CAN give (usually short term only) a level of protection but only by compromising the natural immune system and not allowing it to develop normally and giving lifetime protection.
- follow the money …it is all about drug company profits and they are so feareful that any dissent may lead to their house of cards falling down.
Be aware that governments work in the interests of big business and not for the interests of the public, and there is no bigger buisness than pharmaceuticals
As I have said, all I would like to see is informed consent and freedom of choice.
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repeat after me correlation does not equate to causation. You need a plausible mechanism for the link, not just arm waving and pretty graphs. I don’t think anyone is denying that (for whatever reason) we seem to be diagnosing more autism these days.
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I’ve done this to death. You can’t do the best study, you can do cohort studies (following groups of vaccinated & non vaccinated individuals) or case controlled studies (looking at individuals with autism, matching them with a similar group who don’t have autism and looking back to try to identify factors that might differ between the two groups) but at most these techniques generate “interesting hypotheses”, not rigorous proofs.
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Yes. Thinking about this more it’s kind of inevitable. People sometimes look for blame (probably because “where there’s blame there’s a claim”) - given that almost everyone is vaccinated the companies would probably just drown under spurious claims. That said this might have been affected by an ECJ ( I think) judgement last year.
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Some vaccines don’t give lasting immunity - true. Sometimes because they aren’t very immunogenic (in which case the natural infection might not confer lifelong immunity for the same reason - e.g whooping cough wanes whether it is from natural infection or vaccination) sometimes because the causative organism changes over time - eg Flu. You know there are 4 types of vaccine right? Live attenuated virus (this group is the most pertinent to the discussion here as it includes measles and Sabin polio vaccine). Others are : killed virus, toxoid (inactivated toxin) and viral subunit (interesting “bits” of virus with which to educate the immune system. None “compromise the natural immune system”.
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Did you know that in the 1990’s there was so little profit in vaccine manufacture that production almost ceased? The drug companies do make more money now but not much - it’s a couple of percent of their profit.
I think that it is best if we agree to disagree on this one I think I’ve covered most of the ground, we’ll just wind up endlessly rehashing the arguments.
Oh, another PS - I probably dislike drug companies as much or more than you do. Were I ruler of the world one of my rules would be “no corporate profit from healthcare”, profit really is a lousy motivator for innovation the pharmaceutical industry (the sticking point is that it might be the best one that we have available).
All this is very time consuming but presumably if French schools demand proof of vaccinations before admittance proof of vaccinations they will want.
Indeed - it all becomes a bit academic if you actually wish your child to attend school. One can argue about the non-mandatory ones, I suppose.
geoff - thank you for your interesting exchanges with Paul - the politeness is exemplary.
Can you explain to me why newborns and infants have so many vaccinations, especially in the US - I’ve heard that they’re even given one against a veneral disease. I’ve always understood a newborn has its mother’s immunity for a few months - reinforced by breast feeding, I think.
Also why are aluminium and mercury added to the vaccines?
I also read some years ago that injection is a less effective delivery than scratching is. Have you heard of that.
Another thought I’ve picked up is that even if vaccination did reduce the chances of getting sick in childhood, there can be a less than ideal development of the immune system, increasing the likelihood of auto-immune disorders in adulthood.
I would imagine that there are likely to be French pressure groups…campaigns and legal challenges…I found this petition…my French isn’t great but it has well over a million signatures and appears to be questioning neurotoxins in vaccines and the mandatory use of multivalent vaccines…??? As for the dirty vaccines outrage…such as metals and glass found in gardasil…have you seen “sacrificial virgins”…??? I share your dislike of all pharmaceutical corporations…The CEO of Pfizer has just been given a 61% pay rise of $28 million so someone is making a profit… http://petitions.ipsn.eu/penurie-vaccin-dt-polio/index.php
Hello Margaret, what you say about the positive benefits of breast feeding with regard to immunity is quite correct. I am sorry that I do have to say that I (and many others) believe that the high number of vaccinations is quite simply in order to line the coffers of the drug companies. They often are very selective with the studies that they show to governments indicating sometimes false benefits of some vaccines. Manipulation of data is easy when you fund the reasearch. It really is as simple as that.
It is a very complicated topic and I would sum it up by saying this - In some cases, some vaccines are beneficial some of the time to some infants. However the benefit is often short lived and often compromises the natural immune system making it unnable to provide long lasting immunity. Furthermore some vaccines can sometimes injure the child - not all children of course, but the problem is that there is no way of knowing in advance if a child is likely to suffer or not. The vaccination schedule is the same for all infants - but this is crazy - children are not all the same and this ‘one size fits all approach is not good’.
Mercury is added as a preservative. It is not present in as many vaccinations as it used to be (following an outcry in USA some years ago). It is however still present in the flu vaccine which they are offering to pregnant mothers.
Aluminium is added as what it called an adjuvant. Basically this means that it is added in order to stress the natural immune system into reacting against it. This is done in the hope of ‘teaching’ the natural system to recognise the virus also in the vaccine and thus be able to attack it in the future. It is suggested by many that it is the aluminium which causes many of the bad reactions in infants. Not at all surprising because that is exactly what it is put in there to do - to prompt the immune reaction!
I am not a doctor, all of this I have reasearched myself since the birth of my two granddaughters, however, that does not put me at any dissadvantage in my opinion, as doctors are taught almost nothing about vaccines at med school, other than how and when to give them. Most of their information comes from the drug reps.
The incredible increase in the number of vaccines has now even taken us into a crazy area in the scrabble for profit - Helen who has also been contributing to this thread has mentioned the three part film ‘sacreficial virgins’, about the use of Gardasil. This is truly horific. The film was on youtube (or at least it was last week) ( watch it before they pull it).
I am very happy to share what I know, feel free to pm me if you prefer.
Regards
geoff
It is saying that DPT is difficult to find and that is tne one they want, just those 3 diseases, because there other DPT+ vaccines which are very popular and are easier tonget but they think it is too much at once. So they are asking for the production of plain DPT to be stepped up.
Thanks Vero…not too sure of my language skills yet…There was a huge uprising in Italy against mandatory vaccination and Florida have just recently had some success in striking bills…Homeopathic Nosodes can help guard against infection and can also help mitigate side effects after vaccination…CBD oil is also showing great promise for those children adversely affected by seizures post vaccination…x http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/breaking-major-health-freedom-victory-4-vaccine-bills-defeated-fl
Clinical research on the effectiveness of Homoeoprophylaxis… https://immunizationalternatives.com/clinical-research/
hello Helen, thanks for this. This is something I have just recently come accross and would love to discuss it further. I think it would be more polite to others if we started a new thread for this so as not to bother others who want to continue the discussion which has already started.
Can I suggest that you or I start a new thead calle homeoprophylaxis?
regards
geoff
I agree, Bill. Measles had been eradicated mostly until the anti-vaxers decided to subject the world to another round of diseases.
A reminder of earlier times. https://www.npr.org/sections/npr-history-dept/2015/04/10/398515228/defeating-the-disease-that-paralyzed-america