Cour de Cassation

Legal Advice
21

I tried to add something but the 15 minutes obviously expired before I clicked reply.

If you can set up a fund for legal fees I would be happy to make a small donation. It doesn't take too many others to do the same and you would have 6000€. However, given the systemic corruption in the legal profession, as revealed here, I would be concerned about false hopes and throwing good money after bad.

Having said the above, I would like to say that I have always been a supporter of the EU. I have lived in several EU countries including France, which admittedly was the most chaotic, and always felt that I was treated well, sometimes more favourably than the natives. Therefore it is really disappointing to hear that the rights of EU citizens to freely move and take up residence in another member state as guaranteed by the Treaty of Rome are not really protected, even after 55 years.

22

Hi Chrissie,

There is no point in having this law, vice caché, if the courts refuse to enforce it, which is exactly what they have done. To give a notaire, who colluded in the fraud, a verbal slap on the wrist due to "inexperience" is also blatant bias by the court. The statement by the Bureau d'Aide is staggering. So he admitted receiving the envelope, but denied that the documents were inside? How are you supposed to prove that they were inside. It's blatant bias again.

The fact that there are 106 other victims of this scam, means that the corruption of the French judiciary and related professions is systemic. The idea that immobiliers are too well protected and so not worth suing, but a notaire is, indicates to me that your first avocat was also "inexperienced" or just plain corrupt/biased.

Has this happened to French people or only foreigners? If the latter, it's plain racial discrimination, outlawed by French law, which appears to be unenforceable against the French. Could you take the case to ECHR on the grounds of racial discrimination by the French judiciary?

If I were in your position, I would feel that I had nothing left to lose. It seems that confidentiality of the court system is protecting the guilty. I would seriously consider posting my story all over the internet, as you seem to be doing. However, I would name the immobilier, notaire, judges in the case, bureau d'aide, the vendors etc and hope they would take me to court for libel or defamation. Where possible, I would try to ensure that the media attended the court hearing.

I don't know the situation in French or European courts but in English courts, anything said in evidence in the court is privileged and you can't be prosecuted for it. It can even be irrelevant and inadmissable for the case but it can still be said for attendees to hear and reported on by the media. This is explained in a short story, Privilege, which is found in No Comebacks by Frederick Forsyth, published 1982.

I would think that your case is precisely one which would get the attention of MPs or MEPs of UKIP and BNP. They would want to exploit it for their own ends, but it would be talked about, written about in the court of public opinion.

23

106 other cases, majority foreigners. Fraud and on a very wide, grand scale. I am gobsmacked. Welcome to survive france network. It feels as if your experience is going to be one people will discuss for decades. I can feel the need for a brandy arising.

European court, eventually, and your local 'defenseur des droits' first, springs to mind , but you have probably already thought of these.

I really wanted to just say good luck.

24

Was the immo a British one?

25

Hi James,

Many thanks - Catharine informed me earlier, but it doesn't hurt to have a reminder, my back-up brain cell sometimes flounders!

Kind regards.

26

No, the sellers knowingly sold it to us with 2 tenants, Doreen - the second tenant didn't move in until November 2007, after we purchased! But, the cadastral got rid of her for us in September 2012! That tenant was a hairdresser, but the property is only a stone's throw from the village Church and can't be used as a commercial outlet.

That's another story - it would be very easy to confuse everybody, hence, the reason why I haven't mentioned the second tenant until now! Suffice to say, both tenants had tenancy contracts signed by the sellers, and we knew nothing about them.

The Immobilier and the notaire knew about both tenants, the same notaire who administrated the property sale/purchase also administrated the hairdresser's tenancy contract long before we purchased.

The Grande l'Instance justices gave the notaire a verbal 'slap on the wrist', but they excused her on grounds that she was 'young and inexperienced'.

The Immobilier was in it up to his neck! But, we were advised by our (first) avocat not to raise questions about his conduct because 'Immobiliers are too well protected'. We followed the advice and the Immobilier has never been brought to book.

Yes, the sellers committed fraud by non declaration.

Rather a mess! It took until November 2010 for all the jigsaw puzzle pieces to be put into place, the last few of those pieces were identified by the cadastral and they notified us that they were taking action against the hairdresser. They followed through, too, we were impressed.

Kind regards.

27

If you click on the photo icon for a member, on their profile page you will see a way to message and/or friend them :)

28

Hi Catharine,

Excellent, thank you very much for the information. I am trying to find my way around the Network, but I'm being constantly waylaid by interesting posts! It's a good job we have the Easter school break coming up, otherwise, grandson could well find himself short of his nanny-teacher for a few days!

Much obliged.

Kind regards.

29

Hi Ben,

Thank you very much for that information. I have noticed a few websites offering legal advice, but I steered clear because one can never really be sure the advice is coming from genuine, professional people.

However, a personal recommendation is totally different, imo, and I will note the address you have given, for use if necessary - and for future reference.

Kind regards.

30

Just a quickie - private messages - all you have to do is click on the members photo - that will take you to their page. Then press send message or you may have to "add friend" to message them if they have requested that.

You can also use the chat window to hold private chats - again just click on the list of members online to the right of the chat window and start a chat. Hope this helps!

31

Hello again - just an idea. I have used a website called 'justanswer.com'. I have used it many times for very varied problems (legal - including property, medical etc). I actually subscribe to it (about €11/month) but you can use it for a modest fee (around €40) for a one off question. I have got advice for many members of my family by fully qualified people including solicitors, doctors......

Might be worth a look. A little tip; give them as much info as you can and as succinctly as possible at your first contact. Believe it or not there are experts waiting around the world.

Again, best wishes,

32

Hi Peter,

During our travels around France, we have learned about 106 other cases like ours, approximately 60% involving British families and 40% involving French, Dutch, German and American families.

We have also known several families who ran out of funds before they could get their Cases to Appeal stage - all have returned to their home countries with only their clothing, leaving their French properties and personal possessions to be auctioned to pay the property taxes that are still payable throughout the long years of judicial proceedings.

Companies cash in on folks' misery - just 3 weeks ago, we discovered that the money we have spent on property insurance, since we left the house in 2008, has been dead money. Our property is not insurable. Therefore, the company that took our money every year was actually defrauding us!

I haven't yet worked out how to PM somebody, Peter, but Catharine has my private email address, I will let her know you have my permission to contact me via my email address. Or, I can be contacted through Facebook, either by name Chrissie Baxter, or through my blog Page. I'm really easy to remember and find, most folks know me as hobochrissie, lol!

I would be so grateful if you could send those contact details to me, please? We really need to know for certain that we can continue to the Cour de Cassation.

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.

Kind regards.

33

Hi Howard,

Yes, we provided all documentary evidence to secure Legal Aid. Yes, the stamped receipt confirmed the mail was received. We also sent copies of everything to the ECHR (LRAR) and that was received.

But, as a Bureau d'Aide clerk barked down the phone, we could not prove the LRAR envelopes contained the documents! That has been, without doubt, the most frustrating part of the past nearly 6 years! We were speechless.

To cover the costs for the Cour de Cassation specialist avocat and the advising avocat, we would need to find between 4000€ and 6000€. I know we can very probably raise that by selling the jewellery that belonged to my mother and grandmother. But, before I sell something of such high sentimental value, I need to be certain that we can still proceed at the Cour de Cassation, that we are not now out of time.

There is a French law, vice caché - hidden fault, the sellers did not reveal all the facts.

I will look into The Hague Court set-up, I didn't think of that! Thank you for pointing me in that direction, Howard, I'm much obliged to you.

Kind regards.

34

Hi Tracy,

Thank you for your kindness and support, much appreciated.

Over the years, we have been approached by 4 television companies, including a BBC4 programme producer. All have been genuinely sympathetic, but all concluded that our story was 'too big' for their budgets and too serious to be included in programmes such as 'Homes From Hell'!

Our situation was included in a French television programme about the backlog of vice caché Cases in France, that was broadcast during 2012 but we have heard nothing since.

An English-speaking French property magazine published our story three or four years ago. One comment by an estate agent might have frightened off any further interest. Words to the effect, 'If this Case hits the headlines, we British Immobiliers might as well put our houses on the market and return to the UK. Property sales in France will drop like a stone and will not recover for years'.

Ours is not the only vice caché Case that has rendered an honest, unsuspecting family homeless, but it's possibly one of the worst Cases in France!

Kind regards.

35

Have never heard the like of this but completely believe it can happen. I don't know whether it will help but I can give you contact details for a solicitor in England who specialises in French law as it applies to homes and house purchase. she is English but is married to a French lawyer. Not sure how to contact you privately but if you know please let me know.

36

Hi Doreen,

You have made the same comment that we made to our (first) avocat in July 2007!

Yes, you are quite right and, as was confirmed during our Appeal at the Riom Court, the tenant's contract had run without interruption by our sellers.

However, as was also confirmed by our (second) avocat just before our Appeal was heard, when a tenant has the protection of the French Social Services and is placed in rented accommodation, that tenant can only be moved by the Social Services - not by the property owner(s), not by the Courts. That is a Protected Tenancy Agreement. The tenant is now 68 years of age, just under one year older than my husband.

We discovered in 2010 that the sellers had not wanted to rent to the tenant as they were considering selling the property. But, the property was empty, it wasn't on the market for selling, and they were over-ruled by the Social Services and the village Mayor. The sellers were obviously fully aware that they would not be able to get rid of the tenant even if they wanted to sell the property.

We also discovered in 2010 that the tenant was (possibly still is) under the protection of the Social Services due to having mental health issues.

Kind regards.

37

Hi Ben,

Thank you very much for your support.

During 2009, after our initial Grande l'Instance attempt was dismissed, I contacted two British MPs, including our former MP for Hastings & Rye, where we lived prior to moving to France. I also contacted two MEPs and the French Ombudsman.

The two MPs and one MEP did not reply, despite me sending them further emails. One MEP advised me to contact the French Ombudsman, to obtain information and clear direction regarding our inefficient (first) avocat. The French Ombudsman's assistant advised us to continue with our Appeal.

I'm afraid my family and I lost faith in the political path from that point!

Kind regards.

38

Hi Sheila,

Yes, I know you are one of our most stalwart supporters and my family and I are so very grateful to you and others who have virtually lived this nightmare with us!

Since we received the ECHR Judgement, I have trawled the internet for information that might signpost us to a way forward, but without success.

However, until somebody gives us written evidence that there is no justice in France, we will continue to strive and hope!

Kind regards from the four of us.

39

Ghastly story I agree and gross miscarriage of justice. You said you provided all the documentation required LRAR and the court denied ever receiving it, despite that somebody signed for it? If that's the case, that could be fraud by the French Postal service or even the court.

How much do you need for legal fees?

I suggest an internet appeal. I also suggest emailing all members of the European Parliament giving details of your case in summary and asking for their help, or a donation to legal fees if they can't. I would imagine that anti-EU politicians would love to make something of this. It sounds rather embarrassing for the French government.

>>The judiciary stated that they could not award in our favour because 'there is no law in France to guide us'.

If there is no French law, there must be an EU law or directive. If not Brussels will dream one up. Can you not appeal to the European Court in The Hague (not ECHR)? That should be the highest court in the EU.

40

Hi Chrissie, no advice I'm afraid but so sad that this is still going on so tragically. Did you ever get this in a national paper to achieve wider publicity and hopefully, some help? Fingers crossed someone comes up with something for you.