I’ll be very happy to keep you all informed of progress - the least I can do after all your kind advice. During the course of it, you’ve necessarily had to make some assumptions. On the whole, the optimistic ones are wrong, the pessimistic ones are right (e.g. Irish forebears. Ah, if only my parents had been closer than second cousins, I could have scored more than 3/16ths Irishness from Granny O’Neill - well worth the imbecility that I was threatened with before my birth.) Anyway, just today, a lawyer friend has put me in touch with a lawyer friend of his, so I’ll see where that goes. But thanks to your collective advice I have a checklist!
3 Likes
If you have Facebook I would recommend joining strictly fiscal France, helpful group with experts that can help. As said by others, it could be complicated. Good luck.
I’m not sure that Strictly Fiscal or the Carte de séjour group would say anything different from what has already been said here. But their guides are an invaluable resource for delving into the realities of what can and can’t be done and how, especially as they have translated gov’t guidance into Deepl-english. And it is all from reputable sources.
Good point - there are social charges for UK interest (forgot that for a moment…) and capital gains too.
Just for info, from what I recall from the UK / FRance DTT no social charges on foreign (UK) salary. Or UK rent (?).
On interest income, that’s where an S1 helps, 20.8% for interest (flat rate) with reduced social charges v 30%.
Of course a S1 and declaration will be further down the road for the OP.
Exactly, there are several groups (I’m sure you know Jane, but for the benefit of those that don’t) that are really useful, well run and with expert advice and lots of files for reference. Worth joining.
1 Like
Assuming that you have a UK passport you will continue to be a UK national, although perhaps eventually French resident. A UK National continues to be entitled to their personal allowance. Correspondence with Revenue and customs will explain the UK tax position. Regardless, if your tax bill on UK income is X and French tax on the same income is Y double taxation relief will apply. If X is greater than Y you will pay no French tax, if Y is greater than X then your French tax on that income will be the difference, if Y is less than X the UK will not give you a refund. But do check that this is still the basic simple position.
I suspect that self-employment will complicate things considerably imposing significant French tax advisor fees. Do not neglect your pension position if you are in a works pension scheme, and as an employee you cannot claim the cost of travel, hotels etc.
Hope this helps.
I thought social charges were levied on foreign salaries but I am not sure why I thought this, I suppose somebody must have told me but I cannot remember who or when. This article suggests that is the case, but it may be out of date or wrong for all I know.
Their article is correct and up to date, reflecting particularly the 7.5% versus 17.2% on interest and capital gains which has been much reflected in other threads here, except
They didn’t really distinguish between France salary and UK salary. France salary wholly earned in France will always attract France social security contributions.
There’s two permutations of UK salary - one taxable in France - which will be just like France salary, for this thread that would be work done in France, paid for in the UK.
The other is ‘frontalier’ - work done in UK and taxable in the UK. Because social security contributions can only be paid in one country (EU social security co-ordination rules and the origin of the S1, etc) France cannot impose social security charges on these.
The two permutations can be mutually applicable though - possibly another thing for the OP @paulH to consider!
i.e. the UK paid salary can be divided up into the ‘France’ and ‘UK’ elements. and taxed in each state accordingly.
What would be interesting to know is in that situation which country would get to charge the social security contributions!
There are people literally in this boat - seafarers, and channel tunnel workers - I have seen provisions in the France tax code for various types of workers, and France does have specific treaties for frontaliers e.g. belgium, luxembourg and parts of switzerland. CERN also features here.
1 Like
Sorry, this thread seems to be revolving round slowly and I have forgotten the details and am not inclined to reread it all. But I thought the issue was how to declare the money earned to date in this year’s tax exercise, and it was suggested he declare it as a foreign salary, ie a salary for work carried out in another country. Which as you say would normally not attract social charges because normally there would be an S1 in place but in this case, there is not, and is never likely to be since it is not a frontalier situation.
As you say there are various specific schemes for some types of work, and also bilateral frontier treaties. But I am not aware that there is a specific agreement for FR UK. This is how I understand the scheme to work between countries that have special bilateral agreement but just follow the EU framework. If a person is classed as a frontier worker they are granted an S1 by the country where the work is carried out, and the full salary is treated fir tax and social security purposes as if all work is done in that country even if a very small amount is in fact done in the country of residence. If significant work is carried out in the country of residence then the person is not classed as a frontier worker and an S1 will not be granted. The person is living and working in their country of residence and that is where they pay their tax and social security. Any work they do in the other country would be as a detached worker and as such they are covered for the period of the detachment by an S1 issued by their country of residence/normal work. The normal rules for detached workers would apply under which for short detachments tax continues to be paid in the country of residence/normal work.
That is how it used to work at my company when staff were sent on short detachments to our offices in other countries. We did not swap in and out of different countries’ tax systems for a month here and a week there, as I recall we simply filled in a form for social security and I suppose our HR section liaised with the other country to do whatever formalities were required on reporting our presence etc. Short periods worked in other countries made no difference to salary or tax or cotisations or anything else.
Of course it is different if the detachment is for a year or more, maybe six months or more, I do not know that.
Thanks Sandcastle, that all makes sense. Significant work in France + ‘principle residence’ = all employment income taxed and social security assessed for France.
The UK earnings now taxable in France would then not be taxable in UK on the basis its a small amount of work done, for short periods of only a week and probably not country of residence.
My thought was whether the regularity of the periods of work could then make the employment into ‘two’ distinct employments.
PS I think for detachments for up to two years it’s the A1 form used.
Slightly off topic, I do remember reading somewhere for withdrawal agreement the right to work in France is extended to temporary working in other EU states as part of the employment - including self employment…?
It started with an innocent question about declaring but has morphed into unpicking the whole structure of his set up hrre,which is rather wobbly.
But tax and health are separate. Frontaliers as I understand it pay tax and social chargesin the country they work in.and the S1 allows them to benefit from these social charges in thr country they live in.
As yet Paulis not a frontalier, and one presumes is relying on his first year private insurance for health cover. So I don’t think this is a box to open just yet. Working legally must be the priority.
1 Like
But the EU social security coordination arrangements were designed specifically to make working across borders seamless and avoid having to split employment and social security between member states.
If the UK had not remained a party to this agreement it might have made things simpler in some situations, or at least given more scope for “creative” arrangements if things were less joined up.
I am surprised to hear that the UK has remained a party to the agreement - I thought it left as part of the Brexit deal.
1 Like
I would agree that is good site to join and ask your question. Also Brits Living in the EU27 after Brexit have over 1000 members who live in France and a number of them might understand your position
As far as I remember, this was not agreed in the WA but some things seem to have been agreed since. First there was the EHIC equivalent with the Union flag on it, I forget what they call it, that the EU agreed to accept on the same terms as the EHIC in return for the UK continuing to accept CEAMs etc. Then apparently the UK decided it would keep issuing S1s to pensioners living in the EU when they reached retirement age. I was not aware that the continuation of the frontier arrangement had been agreed until somebody in this thread said it. I assumed that if that is carrying on, the posted worker arrangement will also continue, in which case very little will have changed. Although I suppose British workers wishing to work in the EU underthe cross border and detached worker arrangements still have the hurdle of obtaining the right to work.
Hello Paul,
I’m in an almost similar position except that I have an Irish passport and thus can live and work within the EU. However I am employed and paid by a UK company. So, after much panic etc. I ended up contacting MyFrenchTaxes.com and talking to a chap called Phillipe Henky. They are lawyers, not accountants and they explained that it was all perfectly doable. Whilst whatever they do is not quite in place yet, it’s in progress. There were some up front costs (mostly from the company accountant in the UK - typical) and there is an ongoing cost once it’s in motion of about 20 Euros a month.
So, whilst I am not quite sorted I hope to be in the next month or so (much foot dragging going on unfortunately) and I would advise you contact these people, an initial consultation is free and although they are in Paris they will talk to you over Teams.
Good luck.
P.S. Don’t ask me what they are actually doing, I left that to the accountants 
P.P.S. Ooops, I think there is some much better advice in previous comments, my browser seemed to think I had reached the end when I hadn’t. As a last resort perhaps then try MyFrenchTaxes!
Thanks, John (and, again, others) - I’m hearing back from a lawyer next week who seems quite calm about the situation; but if she has gaps in her info, or is big on advice but not action, I will certainly get in touch with the people you recommend. I like the idea of tinkering under the bonnet and knowing how the engine works, but this is one of those times when I’d rather find a decent garage to make sure I can stay on the road.
Sadly this makes a major difference, and is the priority to sort out. But does show it can be do’able.
Hope calm lawyer actually makes the positive difference and comes up with a workable solution.
Having had a lot to do with local Mairies in 3 different places in France, I would strongly advise against this. It’s the bit about not being allowed to be ignorant of the law. The ‘mistake’ idea works in most places but not in France! I think it’s something to do with this : England vs France : * Wars of Henry II of England and Philip II of France.
- Stephen and Matilda conflict.
- Saintonge War (1242)
- War of Saint-Sardos (1324)
- Hundred Years’ War (1337–1453)
- Parts of the Italian Wars (1511–1559)
- War of the League of Cambrai.
- Anglo-French War (1627–1629)
2 Likes