I got through to HMRC after 50 minutes!!! I have to speak to a technician who isn’t available, so I’ve been asked to call back!!.
Someone better qualified than me will know but I’m wondering whether perhaps you should wait until they’ve actually deducted some tax. Then submit the form and hopefully they will not only refund UK tax withheld to date but also issue an NT code to cover future payments.
What’s form FF1?
The double taxation form. Form France Individual
Ok, I call it the DT 1
FYI, For interest received it cannot be done, in that banks no longer deduct any tax anyway. The banks etc more or less / eventually report the interest paid to HMRC after the tax year, and then HMRC try to find a source of income to deduct the tax due from, through an amended tax code for that income. It’s the same for the state pension - also paid with no tax deducted, no tax code attached.
It might be interesting to see what might happen to someone abroad who gets interest but is not in receipt of a pension income - might be some forumites in that situation?
Of course, tax on the first 1K is exempt with the savings allowance (500 for higher rate tax payers) and there’s an additional lower tax band for interest up to 17K odd, so it’s likely never to occur, would have to be a heck of a lot of savings!
Some very helpful and well-informed comments above..
I’m a little puzzled by the idea that Arcalia will actually be taxed on UK interest received, given the special savings allowances available that Larkswood helpfully mentions.
If Arcalia is in the midst of trying to speak to an HMRC Technician, then I would carry on with that mission, and hopefully an explanation of the (non UK residence + savings allowance) situation will enable HMRC to confirm there will be no UK tax due.
If for whatever reason the Technician is unable to help, or Arcalia can’t reach the Technician, I would then do a Form France Individual (FFI seems to have a variety of names, including the addition of ‘DT’) to confirm French residence. I would simply explain (in one of the empty boxes on the form) what the situation around interest is (ie non UK resident, French tax resident, savings allowance available). FFI - once stamped by the Impôts - should suffice as evidence of French residence, when sent to HMRC.
I’m guessing that the designers of the FFI assumed that since bank interest is paid gross, nobody would need to request a refund. From memory, which could be at fault, HMRC didn’t typically tax UK interest for non residents - by special concession.
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Well, they’re trying to claw back tax they think i didn’t pay last year so have changed my tax code, my public sector pension is taxed in the UK. Of course in France the first £1000 is irrelevant as it’s all taxed. And I’ve paid it.
Here’s a HMRC note about the starter rate for savings which I mentioned, but couldn’t remember the name or details of -
“Lower earners benefit from the Starting Rate for Savings and can receive up to a further £5,000 on top of their Personal Allowance without paying tax. If your taxable income not from savings or dividends is less than £17,570 the Government provides a Starting Rate for Savings, which is a 0% tax rate that allows individuals to receive up to £5,000 of interest tax free.”
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You’ve now had advice/guidance from @Helenochka @larkswood12 and myself that (hopefully) gives you what you need/suggestions for next steps? If not, perhaps you could let us know what if anything you still need. It would also be interesting to hear how you get on with HMRC, assuming you eventually (!) get to speak to a technician. Best of luck, obviously.
After 54 minutes waiting to get through and a further 10 mins waiting for technician, I’mtold: as I do pay some tax in UK on my teachers pension , I will be taxed on my interest in the UK and in France and I need to claim back the interest on form R 43 in the UK or ask for tax credit on next years French tax form, so i don’t pay tax on interest there.
This was different info to what i was previously given, but the FF or DT form really didn’t seem to be the right one, so I’ll go with this and send an accompanying letter.
I’m afraid the HMRC technician has given you completely misleading and incorrect advice!
The fact that you are taxed on your teachers pension in the UK has absolutely nothing to do with the tax treatment of UK interest..The latter cannot (ultimately) be taxed in the UK under the tax treaty if you’re French resident. The way to ensure this happens is to do an FFI as advised earlier and write in the boxes the fact that you’re French resident and should NOT be taxed on your UK interest under the relevant article of the UK/France tax treaty..
Categorically you do not claim relief for UK tax on interest against your French liability, as claimed by the HMRC technician. This is utterly incorrect!
Please do not follow the HMRC advice.
.Here is the treaty article, 12 FYI, to quote to HMRC on FFI. It couldn’t be clearer (by treaty standards).
Thanks for this George, So what should write in the ‘C’ boxes of the FF form? And should I also enclose a letter of explanation with the quote ?
Good question. I would complete Parts A and B in full. In passing, don’t fall into the trap of the very poorly worded question in B3 (“when will you pay French tax on the income”). The correct answer is from the date you first became French resident, NOT the date you will pay actually tax on the interest income (unless you already have declared and paid tax on it in France, in which case put the date - say - of the first receipt of UK interest since becoming French resident ).
For Part C 3 (UK interest) I would write “ see attached’ and go with your suggestion of a cover letter. In it, I would say something like:-
“I am a tax resident of France, having resided there permanently since [ X date]. I am also a non UK resident. I have received interest income in the UK since [insert date]. In accordance with Article 12 of the UK/France double tax treaty, I hereby make a claim that all UK interest received since that date is exempt from UK tax. Please see attached Form France Individual DT to confirm my French residence position. I am of course liable to French tax on all interest income on a worldwide basis, since becoming French resident, as per question B3.
I look forward to receiving your confirmation that the treaty claim is accepted”. [Arcalia - the following only if you file UK returns] “Please note that in accordance with HMRC guidance I will not report the UK bank interest on future UK tax returns.”
Good luck and do let us know how you get on…
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Thank you so much, this is really helpful. I have been paying tax since becoming resident 5 years ok. I was going to put my date of entry to France in 2020 as you suggest as I have declared and paid tax on all my income in France since that date.
It’s not the first time I’ve been given conflicting information by HMRC and I’m sure it won’t be the last.
Sounds very similar to the totally incorrect information I was given by HMRC when I was trying to reclaim some tax from them. They told me to fill in a form that wasn’t even slightly applicable!
Thank you, George1. I tried calling the DT helpline mentioned on the form, but it’s unavailable due to technical reasons. A quick google search of the question lead me to here. My OH is tax resident since December 2020. He has an NT tax code for his private pension, but we now need to complete a new form for his state pension. I assume, therefore, that the answer to question C1 is the date he received the first state pension payment into his French bank account and the answer to B3 is the actual date he became tax resident (i.e. December 2020).
Best regards
Welcome to SF Eleanor. You are spot on with both of your proposed responses. French residence is sole the trigger for paying tax exclusively to France on your OHs private and now state pensions, under the tax treaty, hence referencing his date of arrival in France in B3.
For those unfamiliar with the issue, it’s a notoriously badly worded question (from what date have you/will you pay tax on the income in this FFI). They really don’t mean the date when you’re probably paying tax from September to December 2026 (for pension income received for the first time in 2025 for example). That is of no use to them. The question should say ‘ when did you become French tax resident’ which since they’ve already asked that question in the line above, makes one question the point of B3.
Good luck with the future progess of your OHs FFI with the Impôts and HMRC.
Thank you, George1, for your prompt response and confirmation of my understanding. I do question the point of B3, too. So far, the NT code on his private pension has remained in place (I read somewhere here that it can potentially fall off), so we are keeping fingers crossed for a smooth(ish) ride.
Thanks again and all the best.
Welcome from me too. It might have been me mentioning what you read, one of Madame’s NT codes got scoobied when she got the state pension - HMRC issued a ‘simple assessment’. Evidently initial payment of the state pension triggers this, and that system doesn’t link with the double tax system (if indeed there is ‘a system’ for that, we suspect not).
Cue call to HMRC - got through to the DT technician, he even called us back! He found the DT form for the pension, it is sort of sorted now. T(here may be an ongoing problem accounting for interest so watch for that as well).
I don’t know (yet) whether being in self assessment prevents a ‘simple assessment’, I’m hoping it does.
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