I’ve just found this is the document the extract is from (dated 14Jan2022)
The three bullet points in French do seem to apply to UK residents in France and presumably will mean those with an S1 or able to claim an S1 in the future because of residence before 31 Dec 2020?
I think that it’s very complicated. i translated the relevant passage from the note. “Since January 1, 2021, British residents no longer benefit from European Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of April 29, 2004 on the coordination of social security systems, insofar as the United Kingdom is no longer subject to the provisions of this regulation. They no longer fall within the scope of the exemptions from general social contribution (CSG) and contribution for the repayment of social debt (CRDS) on income from assets, provided for in I ter of Articles L. 136- 6 and L.136-7 of the social security code. However, in view of the United Kingdom’s exit agreements from the European Union signed on November 12, 2019 and December 30, 2020, this exemption is maintained for income from assets received from January 1, 2021 for taxpayers who meet the following conditions: - They are registered with British social security; - They are nationals or legal residents of France, the United Kingdom or another Member State of the European Union; - They are not covered by a mandatory French social security scheme. Consequently, this income from assets will not be subject to the CSG and the CRDS but will remain subject to the solidarity levy at the rate of 7.5% provided for in article 235 ter of the CGI. With regard to taxpayers who have already wrongly paid taxes (for example social security contributions on capital gains from the sale by individuals of real estate located in France which are paid in the month following the sale under Articles 244 bis A and L.136-7 of the Social Security Code), they will be able to obtain restitution within the time limits for contentious complaints under common law” This seems to run right against the advice I received from my avocat only 10 days ago. I will put it to him next week!
Which is what we thought to start with, so I am very, very pleased that it looks as if the guidance is becoming clear. And drinks all round if our sale goes through without paying CDS/CRDG as will save us a lot of money.
An avocat fiscal is only as good as his research assistant!
Not sure he has a research assistant! When ran a professional office in London I used to check stuff myself!
I was speaking metaphorically 
Thanks @David_Rosemont for posting the advice / opinion you received. Much appreciated.
When you said “the effect of Brexit on income from British property and investments” was the advice specifically for both rent income and capital gains tax? And also was it specifically shares or also for savings interest?
I see there’s been a bit of discussion here about rent etc but I don’t think the specific scope of your phrase was exactly specified - did your advocat specify scope of income in more detail than you did in your post?
Also I recall @JoCo has posted that he’s in the process of challenging the tax authority on this very matter, albeit for capital gains and would report back, so I’ve tagged him as info on here might be of interest to him.
I think he posted in this thread -
Also I see people have posted they declare rent (and don’t pay social charges). I’ll have to start doing this but I never got any replies on how people go about calculating how much to declare in France (except for Jane - oh and Tim I think). The tax guidance posted here by Elsie (which I also found) says to use France regimes to calculate and the other posters say they use the HMRC calculations.
I put my query in the Tax 2020 thread.
As there’s one France regime which basically allows you 50% allowance on gross rental income I’d be really interested in thoughts on this as I presume once one agrees the calculation approach with the tax people we then stick to it for the future?
I think the 50% is for furnished and there’s definitions of ‘furnished’ which I haven’t investigated but whether I could just say it’s a furnished UK rental and that’s that…?
I think it is probably more accurate to use French regimes to calculate UK rental, but as ever local tax offices give contradictory advice. So since we asked ours, we are doing what they told us to do! Right or wrong😂
Yup, pop it in the box and that should be accepted.
Yes thanks Jane, I’ll start researching the regimes. Do I recall correctly you run a gite business - that would be under the micro-foncier approach / regime whatever its called?
If you are referring to UK rental income, you do the calculation according to UK rules and declare that to the Inland Revenue and are taxed on it according to the UK rules. You then declare the same gross amount in France and you will then get a tax credit so you aren’t taxed twice on the income.
Elsie, thanks for your input, yes I’m referring to UK rent income. Its just when researching I started with the the guide for foreign income
and under property it has:
Revenus fonciers - Précisez sur la 2047 I’adresse de vos propriétés situées hors de France.
Déterminez les revenus provenant de ces propriétés sur la 2044 , dans les mêmes conditions que les revenus de source française, sauf si votre revenu est imposé selon le régime micro-foncier.
I read (past tense now) this as calculating the UK rent income to declare using the France rules so I must be making a mistake - either with my French, or with my tax understanding or both!?
This has proved a very interesting thread to read! I did challenge the CSG (more below), as things stand they have refunded the full amount, with no explanation.
I had confirmation in late December last, that they had received my cheque, my déclaration n°2048-IMM, and my letter, and did not consider they were competent to deal with it (even though it was the dept I was told to send it to by my local Impots). They had therefore sent it on to the " Pôle Gestion Fiscale de la Direction départementale des Finances publiques". On 14th January they cashed the cheque. On 1st February they refunded the full payment to my bank. I have still had no response to my letter (the particular argument is listed below). I do plan to follow it up by a letter asking for a reply after 3 months, and by a visit to the Impots before May if still no reply.
In detail, so that others may not be ambushed by this - (because it was the sale of a property in the UK I had no reason to use a notaire. )
As instructed by my local Impots I filled in déclaration n°2048-IMM (this is required within a month of the sale) and I sent a cheque for the consequent CSG to the Departmental (Jura) address that the Impots specified. They specifically told me to pay all 3 categories (droits dus lignes 110, 111, 112):
110. Amount of the CSG [(line 100 or 105) x 9.2%] (1) €
111. Amount of CRDS [(line 100 or 105) x 0.5%] (1) €
112. Amount of the solidarity levy [(line 100 or 105) x 7.5%] €
You will note that adds up to the full 17.2%!
Their view was expressed as follows.
"Les prélèvements sociaux afférents à la plus-value :
Restent passibles de l’ensemble des prélèvements sociaux sur leurs revenus en capital :
In my subsequent letter I argued as follows:
“Mes droits à toujours être traité comme un citoyen européen sont pleinement protégés par le “Withdrawal Agreement” - Traité de Sortie du 24/1/2020, en particulier l’article 31 sur la coordination de la sécurité sociale qui stipule que « les règles et objectifs énoncés à l’article 48 du TFUE, Le règlement (CE) n° 883/2004 et le règlement (CE) n° 987/2009 du Parlement européen et du Conseil s’appliquent aux personnes couvertes par le présent titre.’ En cas de conflit entre la loi d’un État membre de l’UE et le Withdrawal Agreement” - Traité de Sortie, le traité doit être honoré par l’État membre de l’UE, c’est-à-dire que le traité a la priorité. Ainsi, j’affirme que l’exigence de payer cette somme n’est pas légale.
Je comprends que je dois payer le montant du prélèvement de solidarité à 7,5%. Je ne dois pas payer le montant de la CSG, ni le montant de la CRDS. En effet, je vous ai envoyé le formulaire S1 correspondant avec mon e-mail et par la poste. Je n’aurais pas été tenu de payer la CSG ni la CRDS avant le “Brexit” et mes droits restent les mêmes après le “Brexit”.”
Glad you got your refund - if I read this, you even got the 7.5% refunded? (at least for now)
Nice one JoCo
I think you need to proceed through the whole text starting on p247.
At the start, under MODALITÉS D’IMPOSITION EN FRANCE DES REVENUS DE SOURCE ETRANGÈRE there are two possibilities
Pour l’application des conventions fiscales conclues par la France, l’élimination de la double imposition peut être prévue selon deux méthodes : l’imputation par l’octroi d’un crédit d’impôt, lorsque les
revenus sont imposables en France, ou l’exemption, les revenus étant alors exonérés.
and Royaume Uni is on the LHS in table 1 MÉTHODE DE L’IMPUTATION Crédit d’impôt égal à l’impôt français
The information for that starts on p247 REVENUS IMPOSABLES EN FRANCE and continues on p248.
It isn’t very clear, but as I understand the text, the section you have quoted comes from CATÉGORIES DE REVENUS which is only a continuation of the section REVENUS EXONÉRÉS EN FRANCE on p248 for countries on the RHS of table 1?
Obvs though you’d deduct the allowed expenses for the revenue according to the French rules though. This gives you the choice of forfait/flat régime or actual expenses IIRC. I think the French forfait is more generous than the English one.
That will give you the amount the French will consider your profit then based on the DTC? you can deduct from that net resulting amount, the amount the UK already assessed for UK tax. Any difference after the UK tax amount is deducted, if any, would be what you’d owe French Impôts? On whatever basis you’d normally owe taxes and any social charges. Surely?
You don’t use the French rules in the calculation for UK property income. You just declare in the UK and then put that gross figure (rather than the net figure after UK tax) on the French tax form. The French then give you a tax credit based on that which should turn out to be very similar to the UK tax paid (it won’t necessarily be exactly the same because of the different way the actual tax is calculated).
I’ll revisit all the document and the DTT - it’s at article 24 and yes not the easiest to work through, but I did it before so will revise.
There’s two ways to do the tax relief - for tax in bands, UK and France taxable income is all added up (global), and the total tax gives a rate. So say 10K UK taxable income and 20K France taxable income = 30K global, say that generates 10K tax - the ‘effective rate’ is 33%. So one pays 33% tax on the France taxable 20K.
Now, the table you noted is actually for employment income, which has the UK in a different method, not the ‘effective rate’ method which has completely floored me coz that’s totally different to how I did it my first time - indeed there’s no place to enter UK employment tax income to deduct from any French tax.
And just to show how contradictory it all is, the foreign guide states for wages - You must declare this income on the 2047 for their amount after charging of charges (salaries and pensions must be declared before the standard deduction of 10% or the deduction of actual costs for salaries), without deducting the tax paid to abroad,
and on page 117 of the guide (in the salaries section I think) we have
Salaries must be declared in lines 1AC to 1DC after deduction of compulsory social contributions and after deduction of tax paid abroad.
Les salaires doivent être déclarés lignes 1AC à 1DC après deduction des cotisations sociales obligatoires et après imputation de l’impôt acquitté à l’étranger.
and just in case anyone with a UK taxed pension is reading - Pensions are to be declared lines 1AH to 1DH for their amount net received after deduction of foreign tax.
Les pensions sont à déclarer lignes 1AH à 1DH pour leur montant net encaissé après déduction de l’impôt étranger.
My tax inspector agreed that was the way to go when I showed him the method (i.e. deduct tax).
However, I know the foreign guide does say not to deduct foreign tax from rental income. I haven’t read the france rent guide yet though…
So yes, it is confusing.!
That does not strike me as fair.
I’m not sure how they could even consider that fair.
What isn’t fair?
You pay tax on UK property income in the UK, You do not pay any tax on it in France. They just need to know all your worldwide income so you tell them what your property income was in the UK.