I didn’t submit it when I made my application, but they asked for it probably 5 months later and a couple of months after that the licence arrived.
Rather than start a new thread, this might fit here (also easier to delete if I missed another discussion on it)
There’s a bit of a to-do on Faceache, with lots of people reporting that there’s been a policy change resulting in UK government pensions been assessed for social charges.
The rationale seems to be that, if you’re below pension age, then it’s not really a pension payment but general income.
It seems to be quite contrary to the Dual Taxation Agreement which explicitly states that CSG is in scope and shouldn’t be applied to income sources taxed in the UK.
Does anyone have any experience of this?
Every year!
Some SIPs get into a muddle with international matters quite regularly. There is no policy change I can see.
Those who have appealed are being told that it’s by instruction from Paris which may, of course, be a fob off.
As you say John, I agree it’s completely contrary to the treaty. It seems extremely unlikely that France has notified the UK of its intention to terminate the treaty (article 32) - so the treaty still applies!
If I was in the position of one of the affected people, I would advise the local tax office that I propose to immediately appeal to the “Competent authority”. Each country appoints one to act as referee, and more often to iron out “misunderstandings” in their country. They are sensible, very senior tax officials who understand the treaty. That might concentrate the minds of the local Impôts who - presumably - won’t want to be seen as completely stupid, or going rogue by their competent authority rep. It might cause them to double check this apparent ‘instruction from Paris.’
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Is it just people who haven’t yet reached state pension age who are being clobbered?
I do know someone here who receives a UK government pension but they’re well past state pension age.
There are fiscal frolics aplenty in Strasbourg this August. Thanks to a recent court ruling, the tax office has closed a loophole whereby people with pensions from international organisations and who also had a French pension saw the CSG/CRDS on their international org pension capped at the annual total amount of the French pension. So if someone had a tiny French pension from working, say, as an assistant in a university years ago they hardly paid any CSG/CRDS on their (in some cases) substantial main pension.
Now they have to pay the full whack apparently.
I must confess I couldn’t make head nor tail of our avis d’impôt this year. Even after 2 vodka martinis.
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Try shaken, not stirred 
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It’s all still a bit unclear whether it relates to pension age in France or in the home nation.
Here’s one post about it.
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If people have retired early on a UK government pension, as opposed to retiring at UK retirement age and being in receipt of a UK state pension, then they will not yet be eligible for an S1 that exempts one from French social charges.
Simple - or am I being too simplistic?
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Until now, government pensions have been exempt and the Dual Tax Agreement is explicit that the dual tax treaty includes CSG in the list of “taxes” that are in scope. So, if accurate, then France seems to have unilaterally changed their implementation policy on dual taxation.
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Thanks, if I’d known that a few years ago, we could’ve become tax res in France a little earlier and got 10 year cartes first time round.
It never even occurred to me to ask for an S1 until I reached State Pension age, as had taken early retirement from Civil Service!
John will correct me if I’m wrong but I think those early retired people with UK government pensions but not UK state pensions wouldn’t have S1s yet.
They probably joined PUMA based on residence.
Nothing to correct 
Speaking of PUMA, no news on my wife’s application yet, though we’re a bit too preoccupied to do much chasing up.
Yes, exactly. So I’m obviously not understanding the issue?
Previously government pensions taken at any age were exempt from all taxes including CSG (technically not tax but it is treated as such in the context of the dual taxation treaty).
Now, it appears that government pensions taken when below the official retirement age (I’m assuming UK but don’t know for sure) are being counted for the purposes of CSG so some people are getting significant and unexpected “tax” bills.
If they are not working then you’d be right However if they are now working in the UK whilst resident here then like me, they could get an S1 from the UK.
The S1 is issued by HMRC for those cases, not the DWP.
It’s interesting as it’s possible that if they are early retirees they may have only qualified for a reduced pension depending on how many years they had in.
I sincerely hope if this is against treaty then it gets legally challenged fast.
Thanks for flagging up this issue. I have looked again at all the relevant treaty articles and it is very difficult - in the absence of seeing the written reasoning of ‘Paris’ - to reconcile the FB comments on the position of ‘Paris’, with the treaty. The latter is very clear (at least by treaty standards!) as to the correct treatment of UK government pensions in France, explicitly identifying CDG, CRDS as being taxes that France grants a tax credit to neutralise/eliminate any actual tax cost to the individual concerned.
I fear that if Paris (ie the Ministry of Finance?) have arrived at this reinterpretation, then it will presumably have to be resolved in the French courts (on the assumption that the UK competent authorities will be unable to persuade their French counterparts that this interpretation is not supported by the treaty wording). If it’s the courts who have the final say, this will unfortunately years, and probably requires taxpayers with very significant resources to challenge and fund the case(s). Ultimately I don’t see how this interpretation can be justified on the basis of the treaty language.
There is little global precedent. In the US the Internal Revenue Service notoriously tried to argue that CSG and CRDS weren’t taxes that could be offset against US Federal taxes. This wasn’t supported by the US/France treaty language. It went through to the courts (as there were wealthy taxpayers involved) and the IRS, remarkably, lost. But it took years and presumably huge legal sums to overturn a tax authority with all the resources at its disposal.
This is very unfortunate for UK government early retired (ie pre S1) pensioners if the FB post and themes are accurately reported.
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Moi non plus, John.
I called the CPAM on 1 August but they had no news. Other than that the dossier is still with the CREIC.
Who knew it would be so hard for an EU national with 27 years’ uninterrupted residence in France as evidenced by avis d’impôt, bank statements, etc. to join PUMA.
Hope you’re doing OK.
xx
One afterthought. For those affected, who haven’t yet joined CPAM,.it might be worth running the numbers to see if the costs of remaining in private medical insurance plus any routine medical expenses not covered by the latter, are significantly cheaper than the expected CSG and CRDS on their government pensions. If there are also some private sector pensions in the mix, as well as the government pensions, there might be a saving.
Another unresearched random thought is that there is a non discrimination clause in the treaty, 25(1), to ensure that foreign nationals are not taxed more harshly than French nationals in the same situation. If early retired French civil servants wouldn’t be subjected to CSG etc, then there might be scope for challenge.
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