Whilst trying to figure out how the new extra cotisations for people earning below a certain threshold of business income when they have other income which is more than the higher threshold works, I found this from FrenchProperty.com and noticed that they picked up on the requirement for full health cover as part of the residence criteria too. They seem to think it's another attempt to stop people getting in for their first five years here. I'm not sure myself, after reading up a lot on it (I think it's more a way of getting more cotisations in) but here is their view, for info: http://www.french-property.com/news/french_health/protection_universelle_maladie/
Debra - I love that you are so genned up on this situation (Robert too)! I, too, have to know all this as it's my job (helping secure Carte Vitales,as well as other French admin tasks). Karen (and Stephen) - everything Debra has quoted is correct. Here is the EU legal source which describes 'residency' - Article 1(j) of Regulation (EC) 883/2004. Article 4 confirms equality of treatment for all members of the EU.
If they try to employ the five year rule, this is discrimination, as French citizens are not required to wait five years.
I have created our own receipt which I get the CPAM to sign and stamp on each visit to hand in paperwork. This is available as part of our remote (Standard) service helpful paperwork pack (locally, I do everything myself (VIP Service).
The form to download and complete has just changed from the CNAMTS 735 to the CNAMTS 736. Two main changes - they no longer ask for your email address for communication purposes (they obviously couldn't handle such an advance!) and they now ask whether you are inactive or not (non-working and below the age of state retirement). Once you have handed this in,, with all of your required paperwork, there is a wait of several to many weeks, depending on your CPAM.
Next step is that you will receive a questionnaire (which is still calling the new PUMA the CMU! They must have a few to use up!). This is the point where you send off your income proofs. You will pay 8% of everything you earn above 9,611€ (up 10€ on last year). There is nowhere to go to find information on what the minimum income level might be in order to prove you are 'secure' or 'stable' in your finances, but we recommend having an annual household income of between 15-18,000€ (note - Euros, not GBP).
Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said. If anyone would like my help with Carte Vitale applications, feel free to email me - nicole@renestance.com (www.renestance.com). Happy to answer questions and advise. We have a blog piece on the website about CVs too. :)
1 Like
For the CMU it used to be the RSA level for your family composition but I haven't seen anything to say that will stay the same under the new system.
I don't think they will try the five year thing again either as that's already been established as incorrect under the old system but it is a bit odd that they've put that bit about having a full policy back into the residence criteria. The safest bet might be a temporary PHI as even if the EHIC card could be used, CPAM have pointed out in the past that it doesn't provide full cover but only emergency cover.
Nicole - the MSA info regarding PUMA does quote the minimum earned income threshold (below which they look at your other income and/or your spouse/partners's income to assess whether a supplementary cotisation is due) and the upper threshold (above which cotisations are payable at a given percentage):
'Le point sur la cotisation de la Puma
La cotisation de la Puma participe au financement du système de santé de manière équitable en complément des autres cotisations d'assurance maladie obligatoire. Elle est due par les personnes qui perçoivent des revenus professionnels inférieurs à 3861€ et dont les revenus du capital sont supérieurs à un montant de 9611€.'
http://www.msa.fr/lfr/protection-universelle-maladie?p_p_id=56_INSTANCE_OU2k&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&p_p_col_id=column-1&p_p_col_count=1&_56_INSTANCE_OU2k_read_more=3
However, though the MSA is usually reliable, I'm not sure if these are correct as I haven't seen it on the ameli site and that's where such things usually appear first. I've seen ten and eight per cent mentioned as the rate which will be applied on income above the higher threshold but again, not on the ameli site. Most of the time I've seen that the thresholds and percentage rate will be set by a decree to be published in March this year - but I can't find it if it has been published.
Do you know if there used to be an upper limit that the 8% rate was applied to with the CMU? If so, does it apply to PUMA too? It's just that I saw an article which said that there wasn't a cap and obviously this will frighten some people who have very high income (especially those who up until now have got away with paying low cotisation levels on AE/ME income of a partner of whom they are 'ayant droit').
As 'ayant droit' isn't allowed anymore (existing 'ayant droit' people will be phased out of that and into their own individual membership by 2020 and some seem to be being pushed off onto CPAM already, when their dossier is reviewed for any reason) then new entrants will be clear on their position from the start but for people who are currently 'ayant droit' it's a bit of a limbo period waiting for these thresholds and the percentage rate to be published so they know how much extra they will pay in future.
Good news for people currently in the CMU though, since apparently they won't pay any cotisations this year and the new rules won't make any difference to the level of income they pay cotisations on since it's all taken into account anyway.
Ref for that last paragraph:
'Bon à savoir
Si vous étiez redevable de la cotisation au titre de la CMU de base, vous n'avez aucune démarche à effectuer. Vos droits à la prise en charge des frais de santés sont maintenus.
La CMU de base étant supprimée au 1er janvier 2016, aucun appel à cotisation ne sera adressé pour l'année 2016. '
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/home/espaces-dedies/beneficiaires-de-la-puma-et-de-l/de-la-cmu-de-base-a-la-puma.html
Just need to add an update/further opinion on the healthcare cover. I linked to the service public site just now to answer someone's query about a carte de sejour and I noticed that the page has been updated quite a lot since the last time I looked at it.
To prove your droit de sejour it actually states that you need the RSA level of income, for one thing. For another thing it states that the healthcare cover in your first year can be proved by having an EHIC card from your country of origin (so no PHI needed).
See https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F16003
So presumably then, anyone who arrives here with a reasonable level of income, and having taken the reasonably expected step of having a UK EHIC in their pocket, then only needs to prove that they have taken up permanent residence here, and have been so resident for at least 3 months, in order to be admitted into the French system by virtue of PUMa ?
Yes. Income needed: http://rsa-revenu-de-solidarite-active.com/montant-rsa/245-montant-rsa-couple-2016.html
Regarding the cotisations for PUMa, I have noticed an interesting point in the wording.
It clearly speaks of "les revenus du capital" rather than simply 'les revenues'. Surely 'revenues du capital' means investment income, does it not ? Therefore, the meaning of the entire sentence is surely that 'cotisations' are payable either by those who have low levels of professional revenue from some small part-time activity, or by those who have an investment income level above 9,611 Euro.
Having reviewed the other provisions about cotisations on the Ameli website, it seems to me that cotisations will only be paid by 1/ Those in full time work. 2/ Those who have a small income from some minor professional activity. 3/ Those who have 'investment income' above 9611 Euro.
I find this likelihood to be odd, and probably not perhaps what they intended to write, but it is never the less that which they have written.
Interestingly, this leaves people like myself who are occupationally retired, engage in no income generating activity whatsoever, and who have no 'investment income', with no cotisations to pay at all. Seems unusually generous, and probably highly unlikely, but it is the result of the use of the words "les revenus du capital".
No doubt I shall have to wait and see, but I have not received a bill since last November, and as both my own and the wife's Carte Vitale are still working just fine I'm not in any hurry to enquire about it. :-)
'Cette cotisation est fixée en pourcentage du montant des revenus fonciers, de capitaux mobiliers, des plus-values de cession à titre onéreux de biens ou de droits de toute nature, des bénéfices industriels et commerciaux non professionnels et des bénéfices des professions non commerciales non professionnels, définis selon les modalités fixées au IV de l'article 1417 du code général des impôts, qui dépasse un plafond fixé par décret. Servent également au calcul de l'assiette de la cotisation, lorsqu'ils ne sont pas pris en compte en application du IV de l'article 1417 du code général des impôts, l'ensemble des moyens d'existence et des éléments de train de vie, notamment les avantages en nature et les revenus procurés par des biens mobiliers et immobiliers, dont le bénéficiaire de la couverture maladie universelle a disposé, en quelque lieu que ce soit, en France ou à l'étranger, et à quelque titre que ce soit'
see https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006073189&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006742810
They use the RFR on your avis d'impots.
You haven't received a bill because they won't be billing you this year since the CMU no longer exists.
'Bon à savoir
Si vous étiez redevable de la cotisation au titre de la CMU de base, vous n'avez aucune démarche à effectuer. Vos droits à la prise en charge des frais de santés sont maintenus.
La CMU de base étant supprimée au 1er janvier 2016, aucun appel à cotisation ne sera adressé pour l'année 2016. '
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/home/espaces-dedies/beneficiaires-de-la-puma-et-de-l/de-la-cmu-de-base-a-la-puma.html
Quite so. As I said in the first place. I rest my case. :-)
Of course it would be too difficult for them just to say that on the Ameli website I suppose. Oh well, this is France, and 'Bureaucracy' is a French word.
Still, a year with nothing to pay is a nice bonus.
By the way, a word to the wise if I may make so bold ---- Not everyone that uses this site has the same ability to read French as you and I, so you may wish to consider giving an English interpretation of the French texts to aid others in following this discussion.
E.G. RFR = Revenues Fiscal de Reference. The amount that is deemed to be your 'relevant income' for purposes such as calculating any abatement of property tax.
Avis d'Impots = The notice of taxation sent out in Aug / Sep each year that gives the amount of tax to be paid, or being refunded.
Actually I seem to remember that what you said was that one only needed to live here in a stable manner and the 'regular' bit didn't mean anything and that income was irrelevant. I explained that if you're not working it means that a self sufficient income (RSA level income) is needed. That is the case.
I was answering you :)
Quickly as possible too before I went to bed and gave up on a keybard that seems to have stopped working, intermittently. I keep having to cut and paste letters that aren't working :(
The site that posted the info re no cotisations is that of the organisation whch collects them isn't it? I don't think the ameli site has been updated well with info re all of this - it's normally the first to have all the info.
An american neighbour has asked me to help her with her application. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but I can't find out if she needs the same form and documentation as EU citizens. She fulfils residency and income qualifications. Is there a seperate form?
It's the same form, CNAMTS 736. The process to receive the CV should be shorter as the CPAM won't have to verify income, regularity proof etc as this will have already been covered with the deliverance of a visa. :)
Hi All,
What an interesting topic, and thanks for all of the contributions. I found them most interesting and entertaining, but of no real use. Likewise, one may care to view my previous post on this subject, which also, is of no use.
Why is it so? The rules changed as previously mentioned, so that everyone who is living in France under their own steam and financial arrangments, is entitled to the basic cover. The French bureacracy, however will interpret any quirk in ones application as a reason to cease all actvity and wait until you stop asking. I know, because we started the process while in a home exchange arrangement, and so we had no bills in our names.
Since my last post on this subject, I have found something that I thought would be very valuable, and that is an English Language Help Line for AMELI. I have had very pleasant conversations with three of their staff and every one of them has advised me that they will not leave my case until it is finalised. All three of them have disappeared without trace. When I ring now, the operator tells me that "Marie" and her coleagues are busy and that they will ring me back within 5 days. That was three months ago. My wife has a permanent Social Security number issued early last year, but she cannot have a Carte Vitale becasue I am an alien of no gender and I come from Australia, which is beyond the edge of the earth. I'm not joking! My friend, the retired notary decoded my number this way.
Sorry to simply add to the problem, but there it is.
Alan