As regards languages, it is about qualifications, that is why it is probably better to be bored rigid and pass exams. As has been said by various people and was in fact in a French newspaper just last week, said by somebody from UMP I think, France has one of the most ambitious language teaching programmes in Europe. It claims that all children learn at least one foreign language, the majority of them English. If it was taught as languages are in other countries, France would probably have the largest number of citizens (strange choice of word since it excludes all other legitimately here...) who would have English as a second language. Probably... I guess so.
There are teachers, like Véronique Langlands, who are highly competent because they are linguists to begin with. There are also, as I am always shocked to find, teachers who have a limited knowledge then lack the confidence to have a try with an English speaker. My ULIS (special needs class) pupil daughter helps the teacher (who is very good in most things) with English in their class. Great, she has quite a serious speech impediment so what the teacher gets as help is perplexing. My younger daughter has a real Jemima Jane accent, from where defeats me but OK, last year her teacher told her her pronunciations were often wrong. Strange from someone who cannot string a sentence...
If we all club our (children's) experiences together then we would either cry in despair or laugh ourselves silly. For all of that, going with the flow and getting the appropriate marks for bac, fac and so on must be the objective and to Hades with the rest. In that respect our children may well be learning two different Englishes - the real one and the school curriculum poor facsimile. As long as they can forget the latter once school is history, then no harm done.
Thanks for the reply
In the 1st yr (6eme) the lessons are as one would hope, about communicating. Which is great for the francophones, but not for our girl.
We've been here over 5 yrs so she is well settled (& bilingual, in fact top of the class in French, I think because she has had to learn in a more formal way rather than by absorbtion)
The problem with English in French schools is that the curriculum is not particularly interested in the ability to actually SPEAK the language being studied.
It is treated as an academic subject like any other, with grammar and vocabulary to be crammed in order to impress examiners, much the same as happens with French in the UK.
This may change in the coming years with the reform of teacher training... IE teachers will actually receive some before setting foot in the classroom..... but that remains to be seen.
No reason why the child should not take part though. If anything, helping classmates with English may help a newly-arrived anglophone child to make friends.
I agree her formal English needs polishing. But thass ar job innit, gerrit dun in arf n'ar sted of faw ars, no problemo. Much better she lerns from eggspurts like me missus and me I not sum secund rayt teechur.
Totally agree with you, Veronique.
My children learn about NZ, Australia, USA - culture, life etc, which I think is quite good. They also had an exchange with a school in the US.
I wouldn't think it was fair if my son would have the opportunity to do his homework or work for later tests while the rest of the class have their English lesson - would make life far too easy for him! We sent our children to follow the French school system (if we like it nor not) and I just find it normal to be like the others.
I know that having to sit through English in college and later in a lycée might seem a waste of time . However if your child intends to go all the way to the bac,given the the need in the French system to acquire as many points as possible,anything you are good at is a plus.I went through the system(bac,fac etc…) as did my children…the extra points helped a lot.
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Am not saying keeping your child in collège-level English is the right thing to do but what is your plan to continue to improve her English vocabulary and more important, grammar, punctuation and writen expression?
In this SMS age, those skills seem woefully lacking in young people who are supposedly receiving an English usage education in the UK system. When they do attempt serious communication such as a term paper or even a thank-you note (remember those?)the results often are appalling.
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We know a couple, French but Anglophile and lived in London with work for a while. Their son, now studying, was with them. He got the same as your son Stuart but they went to the education authority with the threat of taking on a lawyer if they had no satisfaction. The exam result was checked by somebody used as an independent arbitrator with the outcome that 18 had to be awarded. They have no idea what has happened about the examiner though and whether that would happen again.
So, yes you could have done something and there is something wrong as you say. We will be watching like hawks in our case.
Just a little anecdote.
My son carried on the English simply because he had no choice. We thought, oh well at least it will boost his BAC score.
He got 12/20.
I asked to see the paper, knowing that nothing could be changed but I was really curious as to how he could only get 12.
If anything his English was too good, and the person who marked the paper got it completely wrong. In my opinion and that of anyone else I spoke to, he should have got at least 18 or more.
Crazy.
He got his BAC but no thanks to that.
I'd agree with those who recommend staying in the class because my own experiences of being a NZ teacher, a mother of a daughter at school and now an English teacher at a French uni tells me all kids need grammar, understanding word families, spelling.
I taught in NZ back in the days when I was 'allowed' to teach grammar and I did a short lesson on this every day. This is less common now and boy, the standard of English among NZers is now atrocious, in general. My daughter used to complain in high school and uni that she was way more competent than the foreign-import teachers. She was, unfortunately right, and as an ado she rebelled but I insisted on her using correct spelling and that she contribute to our little yearly newsletter to keep up her competence and motivation. She's a very competent writer now though she's not doing anything with it.
As a teacher at a uni in France I can confirm that none of my french students are truly competent. Their speaking is of a low standard after 8-10 years studying English- some can't cope at all but they feel surer of themselves if you ask them to do grammar exercises because they are used to that. If your children are not studying English grammar in a class at school you'll have to teach it yourself at home, like I did because it's absolutely essential for credibility in future studies and employment. Problems could arise where the french teacher of English isn't all that competent.
Will look into keystage english, sounds like a great option. Maybe if your principal says no to your daughter going to the CDI she can work on that in class at the same time as the others? I think that English classes in lycée are important but in college are not necessary. I couldn't even image a teacher singling out a student because they are anglophone. I give the student the choice if they want extra work (not graded) or if they want to do their own thing. It is really boring for them, even if my classes are interesting for the others! : )
You have to pick which college you go to ,different ones do different language options.There is one in perigeux that does chinese
Our younger daughter is happy to have English classes. Maman being Italian first language is not ideal, anyway they only use French together. I lack the confidence, my record of (then) 'O' level failures is spectacular and it was people turning a blind eye for me thereafter when went on to study, so I totally lack confidence and skill to do it. School is the best option. She is good at languages and knows she needs qualifications in each one, so whilst she wants to do German at college next year, wants the English for the grammar, qualification and such practical aspects.
If your daughter has access to all that is required plus a qualification then she can justifiably drop it. However, be very thorough about all of that before making an ultimate decision. In essence we are rather like Kathrin above.
I will follow this post with interest as my twin daughters are in 5eme and although doing German as their first language have 3 hours of English. Whilst it is great for their 'moyenne' as they get 20/20 all the time, they are not learning anything that they do not already know. Our collège said that no alternative could be offered to the girls and they are really quite bored in their lessons. However I will hand on heart say that they do make spelling mistakes and now have a tendancy to add an e to most nouns! I work in a Lycee as an English Language Assistant and my colleagues in the English department have said that realistically the girls will not learn anything until they get to either 3eme or 2nde. The worst thing is that whilst I work with some fabulous teachers I do not think that their teacher has even passed his CAPES as he wrote' You're Welcomed' on the board the other day and for directions 'go passed the bank'! Makes me doubt my own English!!
Our children are trilingual and they still do the English lessons in collège like everybody else in their class. Even if I don't always agree with the way of teaching (but then I've seen it all before when I visited French collège as a teenager), it never crossed my mind for them to do something else during the lessons. Two simple reasons: They don't actually want to be different! They enjoy being with their class mates and help if necessary. I think that's a great way of sharing their knowledge. Second reason being that it doesn't harm learning English grammar and spelling. Reading English (and German) just came naturally to them once they were able to read French, but writing is different. And they obviously never "learned" the irregular verbs, which they then learned at school.
And isn't it great they can get great marks in a subject without having to work for it?
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Jane Griffiths reply correlates what happened with my son (aged 11 when arrived so into sixieme)…orally way ahead but lacking in grammar. As the Bac is heavily based on grammar terminology, your daughter does need a grasp of this, especially as French terms are different from English ones eg: ‘preterit’ for simple past etc etc. At Bac stage though, she could opt for ‘anglais avancé’ with a higher coefficient which potentially compensates for lower marks in other subjects!
I have seen this lack of grammar with other anglophone pupils during my teaching experience too. So maybe head for a compromise of SOME attendance? Good luck…
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Interesting. Our daughter has a fantastic English teacher, she is in 4ieme and is doing keystage 3 English, exactly the same as if she were in the UK. Her teacher's suggestion. (last year she just did homework from other subjects during English lessons) We want her to have a qualification in English, Obviously as she is English. So this is perfect for her.
interesting. I do remember (a long time ago) when I was at school in England there was a native francophone girl. She had to take French (compulsory then) with the rest of us. She wasn't the best at writing and spelling, and knew nothing of French grammar. She never spoke French in class as we couldn't have understood her native French (and the teacher probably couldn't have either). She got only an average score in the end-of-year test.
Last year in 5ème my daughters' teacher was going to put them in for the Cambridge Certificate in English, which is what the French 3èmes can take to show their english level - but it never happened ...If you could have proof with that certificat that they have 'passed the program' for their year at all points, perhaps that'd be the reassurance that the school needs.
Could you suggest a classe 'horaires aménagés' - there is one in 4ème and 3ème in their school (for those who need their evenings free for sport or music,or looking after younger siblings) and they have extra hours just for them in the CDi to do their homework during school time. So a class of 24 having a compressed timetable with very diverse reasons - and why not english too? The children & the parents had to write a letter of motivation at the end of 5ème and only those with good results were chosen. So they had the advantage of being in a motivated group too.
Also maybe bring the subject up with the Parents Délégués of your daughter's collège class to present at the meetings they have with the teachers for feedback/suggestions: it may carry more weight going through the official channels?
I agree the most difficult thing would be how to account for your daughter and the administrative extras. I would say maybe to ask to avoid any administrative issues that she be required to take any tests, and the other days she goes to the library. That is the situation with the anglophone I have. He has to come to class once a week (not my rule but the principals) and takes tests when we have them. That way they avoid any administrative nightmares of her being exempt. Everyone wins (except the librarian who will be responsible for her). Present it as a win win for everyone (your daughter progresses and the class can participate more since there is one less student..lol).
Seriously it is such a joke that anglophones need to do english...what a waste of their time...
Good luck!