@Andrew, I don't see my eldest son staying in France, to be honest. He has an international outlook and will go where the best work is. As for cost, you can get loans to cover living expenses too, and they are not paid back until salary reaches a minimum amount. It'll be like paying an extra tax, by the student instead of the rest of the tax-payers.
@Brian - things have gone downhill it seems from when I did my MA. It's a shame because the MA used to be a respected qualification.
excuse lots of errors folk - surgery yesterday has made me a tad wobbly today
Sarah - right on value of 'degrees' but carefully the whole world on what is considered postgrad. MA is now business, they generate a hefty fortune for terrible teaching, low grade project work, dissertations that are best not mentions and exams that the average gibbon should pass. Not, I shall add a snobbism I have cultured, but notes compared with dozens of serious academics across disciplines who like us will never again teach on them. They are a rip off and students do them in desperation in the hope it will get them something, but NB on many MAs, especially business things, a first degree is not required. Says a lot in itself. MScs are going down the same road. MPhils are just about surviving the pressure to become commercially viable. It is a sad picture for those of us who studied in the past but regretably what the massive commercialisation of higher education has done to those who are now supposed to need it.
@Brian, yes I didn't touch on the UK university situation because of the fees which for me leave a student at such a financial disadvantage once they're qualified that you need to know there's going to be something the other end to make the exercise worth while! One other point that I didn't make which I'm sure you're both more than aware of but for others that might read this - Where is the youngster likely to spend their working life? If it's in the UK where a degree is still pretty much a degree (I could have done so many things with a masters in languages there) then the course isn't too critical (unless specific/vocational) If it's France, then the course will very quickly pigeonhole the person into certain jobs and close all other doors (French "culture/society" says I can teach languages and translate in France but that's all) I do agree with you though on pushing truly bright students who want to learn as far as possible and we should be now be living in a meritocracy but I don't think we're quite there yet...!
Sarah, I'd just think about the point I've just made about where your son sees himself spending the rest of his life (not easy I know!) see above. And Brian's remarks on costs, especially as student accommodation can be dirt cheap in France, plus the caf help pay (sometimes) I remember how expensive Exeter was! I didn't ever pay as I lived in Torquay and travelled in as a mature student, then rented a house with others for my final year, but those in halls were paying a fortune...
- Andrew, I absolutely agree with you. The IUT is a great place for practical study. My son is not engineering minded or indeed practical and I really think a university environment would suit him better.
The university guides give percentages for the number of students in employment within 6 months of leaving (I think it is).I just gave Nottingham and Exeter as examples, but both have well over 80% for economics.The better the course in the subject, the higher the employability of the students. Both universities got high rankings in student appreciation of the courses too.
They also have links to EF, and students going through that organisation get special admissions treatment.
I was at Exeter too 1982-7, loved the place.
-Brian - what a coincidence! lol
Andrew, absolutely with you. The problem is partly in the internationalisation of higher education. France only enters the top 100 at 22 and it is well past 40 before they re-appear. Sorbonne and Beaux Artes were in the top 10 for decades, now neither scores above 60. What is happening is that degree quality and research do not make it any longer, the main critique being that there is too much rote learning/teaching targetted at producing degrees but not people to USE university developed intellectual skills. The UK is no better and stardards are so on the slide that many good teachers and researchers are getting out (we both did) or going elsewhere such as the USA where, as much as I dislike the nation as a whole, universities are excelling.
Thus, our especially bright daughter will be up against that wall in under a decade and what should we advise. My OH has a number of fellowships and associateships that keep her hand in and bring in occasional money so she can watch whether things improve. When you look at UK universities think tutorial fees. Unless it is a place with a single level you shall find something like:
Standard: £6,995 per year
Resource intensive: £7,495 per year
Specialist: £7,995 per year
Premium: £9,000 per year
Even the top whackis NOT value for money since permissible tutorial/supervision hours allowed have been drastically reduced since I did it day in day out without the students paying and I got paid almost as much per hour as they get now!
Then add other fees, materials, books, accomodation, transport, leisure, etc. There is a report I read but did not download and keep that predicts that without allowing for inflation a debt of around £64,000 is the probably real estimate, which means that two new graduates marrying and not finding work (one or both) immediately have a potential 'lifetime' debt because of mounting interest, charges, etc after they have completed uni.
Is it better on mainland Europe? The answer is that it is a little bit better because the debt threshold is lower but job opportunities are vague comparable everywhere. At prsent vocational qualifications have advantages BUT most governments are pushing them and predictions of saturation are mostly within the next five or six years everywhere.
This is why those of us who care a lot about education are pushing for the best students to go to best unis and to somehow kill off the economic advantage/family connections/and very artificial entry requirements, tests and so on. Hence, I shall always recommend doing lots of homework to look for the best and start applying from the top and work downward. It is not snobbism at all but desperation to see deserving talented students get the best and in turn keep standards high themselves if they remain within higher education as teachers and researchers.
Forgot to complete the range with BTS (more or less on a par with a DUT) but I guess papa would have a nervous breakdown at the thought of a mere bac+2 but it's a good way into something specifique, if there is a specifique interest that is...!
From the discussion so far I can see that the pressure is on to go as high as possible but can understand that grandes écoles would be way too heavy going and a waste of two years prépa and a feeling of failure if it didn't work. I've been through a maîtrise on the L side of things and yes the difference between the L and S facs is huge! UK unis - don't forget the "nearly as good as" ones - I went to Exeter and for French and Italian the teaching scores were at times better than Oxbridge ;-) As for IUTs, I'm a fan because I teach at one but also because it's very hands on and gives very good employability (obviously depending on the course!) and is down to earth - We're in the middle of mechanic valley (Brive to Rodez) the heart of specialised aeronautical and auto engineering firms and the génie méchanique et productique students go on to very good careers but then you have to like engineering! Despite having a bac +4 and OH a bac +3 (plus both being teachers but both on the point of leaving the profession) we'd be quite happy if our kids don't want to go on to uni but want to be artisans or commerçants or whatever - there are so many bac+5 at pôle emploi that people really must look at what they're actually going to do once they've finished uni: is there a demand for that, will I get a job and have a future? far too few simply never ask themselves the basic question...!
sarah - made me tingle. my first OH was graduate tutor at Newnham and I an 'ordinary' fellow at Christs when we married although our actual colleges were others. Pity about Newnham being a son... Make a direct application and give a collegiate preference based on having an alumnus in the family - those bits of tradition are a bit archaic but remain respected tradition nonetheless.
A friend of mine has a daughter who got into Cambridge, started this academic year in fact but I don't know whether she did Oxbridge entrance or what. I haven't ruled anything out, we are just starting out on this investigation but it seemed a good idea to keep options feasible. I'd love my son to go to Cambridge. Both my parents went there and met there in fact, my mum at Newnham and my dad at Christ's. :)
Thanks for your thoughts on Oxbridge. :)
Thanks Catherine - glad you have added the Oxon bit to breaking down wrong impression given about two immensely creative unis. Science Po Paris you mean? Good place, know people teaching there and one can do bilingual work there too.
You can now do Science Po (sounds like the telly tubbies I know) after an L bac. The "S is best" attitude is changing, albeit slowly.
Agree with Brian re Oxbridge. They are looking for people they want to teach, not Bac / A level results. I would personally tell him to do whichever Bac he will enjoy most and I'm sure any UK uni will be pleased to have him!
Sarah do not believe the Oxbridge misinformation. Cambridge selection looks seriously at references, how people express themselves their application and the 18/17 / triple starred As is a preference only. I was personally part of a selection panel that took on a young man with one A, and not a grade a or 1 even, because something spoke to us all and when he came in for an interview that was it. He, like I did, went all the way throught to a PhD in the minimum possible time and picked up postgrad bursaries easier because Oxbridge research is highly regarded and trusted. It is worth trying if it looks attractive enough. Otherwise, as you say loans, grants and so on are precisely the same as for home students.
I'll second Catherine on that, but when looking at the UK end look at the RAE (Research Assessment Exercise) scores of the people teaching, part of which is based on the quality of their teaching materials. Have a look yourself to get an idea how it works and looks, explain to your son about it and do it together in choosing a uni. My wife would tell you exactly the same as an academic with very high RAE grading who worked with people who should in all honesty never have been employed by a university because of which too many students suffered and underachieved. I was already on the way out when RAE began but did some assessments, for both of us it was a large part of quitting UK higher education.
Great article and I can totally relate to the difficult choices your son faces at his young age! My son is just coming to the end of his ES back, having been educated in the French system since the age of 11. He decided that he wanted to return to the UK to do a degree, despite the debt he faces upon finishing his studies. He recently had an interview to do a BA(Hons) Advertising course in the UK, got an offer of 10 points in his French Bac and is totally made up! I believe it does depend a lot on the individual University and what course is being applied for, hopefully they will understand the advantages of having bilingual students on the course and the offer will reflect this as in my son's case?
EU students can have the same loans as UK students, and are charged the same fees, so my son could get a loan along with everyone else.
I've been looking at the Good University Guide both on The Times and an independent one to find out what universities are the best in various subjects. I doubt my son could get into Oxbridge unless he worked miraculously hard and got 18 for his Bac, both of which are a tad unlikely...
Brilliant info on the scoring system thanks. I'm pretty sure there are grants available for French kids to go to the UK too as a friend of Daisy's was considering it. Keep us posted please!
dissuade nottingham but warwick has some good lecturers. where I went is good too but will break the bank, except that the investment in that faculty (to which I belong still after many years there) is so much more likely to open career doors and postgrad opportunity which is becoming more and more necessary - that's cambridge, which I can assure you is not as snooty as people say (I am real evidence me cocker) and has a brilliant student life to boot. either way, look long and hard and find out about the status of people teaching whever...