Oh the laws are much tighter here than they were 20 years ago...it wasnt so different in the UK then than in France now. If we rent a house in France......it can be years to get out a tenant, not so in the UK. We had 3 kids at university....lucky us, we had a 14 month gap between each. Thus we were paying for each of them in flats at the same time. In every single situation the kids lost their (our) deposit...despite myself and another mother cleaning the flats for an entire day before the keys went back. The flats were in better condition than when our kids moved in. Thats been tightened up as well in the UK now...and owners do not get to keep the deposit which is now held by an agent. Certainly we have been on the market for 2 years in France and everyone advises strongly not to rent out as we are most likely to have terrible problems...in the UK we rented out with no problems....had lovely tenants as has my son in his house whilst he is in Dubai.
I’m sorry Carol but the laws in the UK have not been tightened up to give greater control to the landlord, we have been lucky so far with all our tenants but our son twice lost a lot of money getting non paying tenants evicted (both had references and credit checks) he then gave up on the rental market. I agree however it would not be difficult renting in London though I also know people who did not have any problem renting in Paris.
The Parisians do seem to have a reputation for being unfriendly even to other French people, though the worst rudeness I know of was when a friend in New York asked a policeman for directions, I guess it can be the same anywhere.
Renting in London much easier Michael...my son with girlfriend three years ago found a flat and moved in within the month...they were in their late 20s...she was a student midwife...he a graphic designer....he had to provide 3 references, one his bank, one his employer....no problem. Now you would never be able to do that in Paris. We rented out a house for 6 years, so are well aware of tenants rights....which in the UK have been tightened up considerably....giving the landlord much greater control than previously. Its a fine balance. I understand your comment on the difficulties of moving to New Zealand....I guess anyone with a great wad of money like Gerard Depardieu can move anywhere!
Carol, You may not see the problem but try explaining the to the New Zealand immigration , doctors and nurses are often accepted in many countries, but I know a number of professional friends who have tried to go to NZ and been told they are “the wrong profession” and not wanted. The French rental laws are not good but it is only a little better in the UK where it will normally take at least 3-4 months to get rid of a tenant who stops paying, and if then make a token payment you may have to start all over again!
hmmm...if I may make the comment on behalf of Francis....its not so much the fact she is finding it hard to integrate as renting in Paris is made impossible by the laws made by the French government which empower the tenants to the detriment of the proprietaire. The property agencies in Paris are rude, not unlike the waiters! I have 2 friends I trained with as nurses...both emigrated to New Zealand and have lived there for some time. 20 years ago my husbands GP trainee decided the grass was greener and moved away to New Zealand...he is still happily settled there. My sister in law has just begun the move back to Australia.....at 71, she is English, lived there for 20 years, and has been back here for another 20 years, she isnt rich. If someone goes to work in a country and isnt claiming benefits I dont see a problem...
Frances, I really don’t think you can complain about the French system, a French (or even English) person in your situation would not have any chance of staying in New Zealand!
It's a pity, you are on the doorstep of some of the most breathtaking scenery, the lakes, the mountains, the most down to earth people, and only a stonesthrow from Italy, and Switzerland.
When I go to Lyon, i find the address of where I want to go, go directly there, and come directly back... if I need to have lunch, I'll stop in a village or town well outside Lyon. Chambery, and Grenoble can be the same, but Annecy is a great city.
I'm actually a little sad that you never got to appreciate the beauty of the region.
Kate, Aix en Provence is known to be somewhat of a snobbish area. If people are asking you when you're leaving on an almost daily basis, there is a very big problem.
To say "France is xenophobic" is a little harsh, I've lived in three very different areas here, and the only time I've felt unwelcom was in Paris, and when I had first arrived, and had little or no French.
Look at anywhere else in the world... in the UK, people have an image in their heads of what a scouser looks like, or that a Scotsman (Sorry, Brian), is a heavy drinking, brawler type-much like the Irish), there is the whole "from the north" thing, dividing people further. France is not unique in this.
I can only say, Kate, you chose the wrong place to live. The people in my life (and I have ONLY French friends and neighbours here) are warm, helpful, and always ready to help life a washing machine up a flight of stairs, or ask you in for apero.
Share that one Jane. My OH knows they hear the Swiss-Italian accent but are not quite sure what it is then get confused by the Swiss French she still uses at times. Because I roll my 'R's they sometimes think I am Spanish. Again same sword as yours, since people from the south are considered 'inferior' in some way...
I was mistaken for a Belgian the other day. I was flattered that my french was so good, but knowing what the French think about the Belgians, found it a bit of a two-edged sword.
I would largely agree with Chris...Paris is a country on its own...and the French are non too keen on the Parisiennes and especially the waiters...who seem to go to 'sneer school' to qualify! We have visited Paris lots of times....but have had far worse experiences in Paris....and Barcelona...compared to London....where I lived for over 20 years without ever getting mugged, shaken down or abused....whereas in both other capitals its happened several times! But its true that the French generally are charming and helpful....as soon as you can...move!
Dear Francs, please don't confuse Parisians with French people. Down in the south-west, we have rarely encountered anything but friendly and helpful attitudes and great patience as we struggle to explain ourselves in French. But, as for accommodation in Paris, I suspect it is just as much a nightmare as London. I wish you good fortune. I can tell you that there are a number of expats' associations in Paris area where you can share woes and get useful information; you might also try the American and Anglican churches. And - eventually - you WILL find some good French friends.
Dear Frances
Don't give up, and don't let them get to you:) I am Danish living in Paris and I can unfortunately follow everything you say; the first couple of years I was here it was the same (in many ways it still is, but you learn to ignore and just move on). Have you tried PAP? Forget the rental agencies, it's too difficult, plus some of them will tell you to your face that renting to foreigners is just too much trouble, or sometimes the rolling eyes will let you know how they fell:( What the they say and how they treat you is ILLEGAL, but don't expect a lot of help from anyone, in fact don't ever expect any help at all, that way you will have fewer disappointments.
After having moved from seasonal rental to seasonal rental I found a guy on PAP who would rent to me, despite the fact that I was a foreigner, had to pay a huge deposit (6 months), but still. It's not exactly ideal, plumbing is a nightmare, electricity very interesting, etc. but it's my own place:)
If you for some reason really want to live in France, you will have to fight as a foreigner and really have to put up with attitudes I personally have not encountered in any of the other countries I have worked and lived in. That's just the way it is....
Good luck:)
Hi Frances,
I wish I could give you a great big hug ...it's hard doing it all on your own, I know xx Try to stay positive, it isn't easy...but who said it would be :) I live in a little village called Feilluns (between Perpignan and Carcassonne) and rent out a small village house in an neighboring village...luckily theu are fabby tenant (like you, they do exist) but I've friends who have had the most awful experiences as some people really milk the system and take advantage of the fact they can't be kicked out if they don't pay rent during the winter months... unfortunately good people get 'tarred with the same brush'. It has taken me nearly 8 years to get established here (5 of those I just came for holidays but got to know many people during those times) and I also find the red tape unbelievable and a little intrusive to be honest (they would ask for the colour of your pants if they could...tee hee) All in all though, I agree with you completely...it is a lovely country and I am so happy to be able to live here. Bon courage and don't give up !!!
Love
Carole x
As a gorgeous, cultured, intelligent and very well-travelled Frenchman said to me the other day: "It's quite simple really...the French do everything in the same way because that's the way it's always been and so that's the way they think it should be and never mind about what anyone else thinks. If people approach us with a different way of doing things, or with a suggestion that we go with "a feeling" we think they're after something or else simple-minded. In a nutshell, as a nation we're just not very evolved really. We're so proud of the fact that we cut off our Royals' heads all those years ago but we don't stop to think that all we are now is our identity card and our papers. We're not taught to think outside the box ever, at all. Never taught to use initiative. We are like sheep. It starts from our schooling."
I've been here 7 years and I can finally call France my home. I am fully integrated into the French part of life..I speak fluent French and I work with many French people as a singing teacher and vocal coach and professional singer. Don't despair Frances...after a while you'll work out your own ways of getting on over here. There are wonderful things and many ridiculous things, such as the systems you mention, that seem to people who are not French to be positively retarded sometimes and you wonder if you are living in Europe or a third world country! There are things I would miss terribly and things which make me miss London terribly too! Just try not to take it personally and remember that there is a 99.9 per cent chance that if you take a serious, very assertive stand, a French person will back down as culturally it's weird for them. They have many deeply embedded unspoken rules of social etiquette, even when arguing!!
That said, my main experience of France has been one year many years ago in the South West, and the seven years I've spent living here on the Cote d'Azur. However, the gentleman I mention at the beginning of this post is from Paris. They say people in "le nord" are nicer...I've met some and they do seem much more welcoming and friendly...I, like Charlotte Guigou (post of 5 May on her) have made my best and most sincere friendships with people who are not French, unless they are French people who have travelled outside of France. Find yourself some English speaking friends that you feel comfortable with and then you won't feel so alone.
Good luck!
I don't think that being treated badly by the french civil service is off topic. It is part of what makes you feel not wanted in France.
I totally understand that the french are treated the same way, but it is still very unpleasant.
True Brian...off topic again...maybe someone could start a thread called ....off topic!
Actually, ladies, Thatcher did not get rid of strikes or troublesome unions. Mining was dying anyway, but she speeded up the process. The NUM still exists but with a very small membership given the small number of mines. Public sector unions all still exist and do take action occasionally; note that doctors were on strike a few days ago and the NUT has promised they will if the GCSE back to O-level business goes through without consultation. The civil service deadlines for responses, thus it is the staff of MPs who are responsible for that, pre-dates Thatcher quite a long time but has gradually been enforced. Under Blair it became normal for the 'reply within reasonable time', I have a copy of the Act of Parliament here, to be adhered to. As for French unions, well given the proportion of people in public service who are almost all in unions and the dependency of political parties on the financial support of unions, the chances of a government of any 'colour' doing what you suggest in the foreseeable future in unlikely.
However, I am a little lost on what any of that has to do with Frances' original question about almost feeling unwanted in France?
Jane...to compare is not odious...its how the world learns and improves...its education...if a system works well and another doesnt..you compare and improve the one that doesnt work.Its what happened with the third world...if one part of the world didnt learn from another we would still be living in caves. Thatcher had huge unions to deal with, miners, public sector, you name it...she fought the lot...and I didnt even vote for her or like her...but she did what she said she would...and got rid of strikes in the UK. If people know they can be as useless as they like and there is nothing to worry about in terms of keeping their jobs...why would they care? I have in the past written letters here to ministers in charge of certain offices..and you dont get an acknowledgement...which is plain rude, according to French friends that is normal....they are amazed you can write to a member of parliament...even someone in the cabinet and get a reply...within 2 weeks in the UK!
@Caroand Celeste, Sarko made that part of his election pledges, but it is very difficult when the very small unionised part of France creates such a fuss and the rest just shrug their shoulders!
I just don't understand why they put up with it. I know comparisons are odious, but, if you write to a government department in the UK, you must have a reply within three weeks and if not, you can write to the Minister in charge of said department and complain and, lo and behold, something will happen.
This is simple to introduce. There are no checks and balances in the way that the civil service operates here in France. They ask all the questions and then give the answers!!