Introduction and need advice on what to do

Politics
21

Karen, the Auto E is different from the micro and the other levels of enterprise. No tax is paid. A percentage of the “gross” earnings is paid to RSI, which is a sort of health cover and you get a carte vitale. No expenses are taken into account. Sellers of goods pay 14.30 % (was 12) Supplying of services 24-25%. There is a ceiling on income, and many stop trading as soon as they reach that, and wait for the new year. A ceiling also applies to the “micro” system.

My friends who had the difficult pregnancy, were only in the micro system for a few months, before the medical problems. Their cotisation was €100 a week. They didn’t continue trading, the next year, because business wasn’t good. The husband joined the AE system.

The carte vitale pays a reasonable percentage of the costs, and most people take out a supplementary cover. The percentages vary, and their are exceptions.

22

Karen, the few expats, I know, who have carte vitale, all have an extra top up cover with various companies. Some also have such cover to cover the shortfall in the NHS euro card service.

I spoke to a former neighbour, the other day, and she said that the Brexit mess might disrupt the CV system, which exists for expat pensioners. She said that the french system gets some sort of reimbursement from the NHS, which Brexit will screw up!

Working people in France, when using the carte V don’t have this problem.

23

We make and sell goods, which will be posted outside of France as there's not really a french market for them.

In the UK we use the simple tax system of putting in our takings and our expenses and pay tax on anything above our £11k.

We don't have certificates to prove my husband can use a lathe as it's something he has learned through the years, along with his knowledge of our market.

The health side of things is relevant due to our daughter's disabilities, though she's not needed an admission for anything other than surgeries for years. But she does need access to an epilepsy nurse to adjust her VNS. I know there's an epilepsy neuro in Rennes, but not sure how we'd get access to her and what we would need to pay.

I saw something which alluded to the %age of handicap and how that could mean her expenses are covered, but it all looks quite complex.

24

We are a little way of retraite!

We will be working, though not for an employer and paying into the system.

We are working on our French and have so far found those we've "spoken" to try hard to help.

One of the biggest surprises for me was the number of french who offered assistance when our daughter was distressed and making a lot of noise in the market. In the UK we usually get told to shut her up or tutted at!

I wish we knew the effect Brexit will have on us. It is very unsettling as we will be signing contracts on our cottage in the next few days!

25

Ann, oui!

26

Karen,

You could have a problem claiming expenses/costs incurred outside the country.e.g UK pastage/couriers etc.

To qualify for the french health system, you must be part of the whole: on the dole; pensioner; or trading/working in the system. Sarko tried to exclude the Brit oldies, but he was overruled by the EU.

People with holiday homes, use the EURO health card and have a top-up to cover the gap.

The EURO card lasts for two years (as far as I know) after you leave SS Britannia, which is in the process of scuttling itself!

Those who live here, but don’t (if you get my meaning) use a complete mutuelle or its equiv, such as BUPA.

The system is complicated, as are most, if you approach it, as it would like you to. However, if you start making any awkward desk jockeys do more than shoving bits of paper round, they soon become very helpful, just to get rid of you.

Incidentally, the term “cottage” translates into “chalet” in french and isn’t used to describe the small french rural houses. They are more often called “fermettes”, unless they are in a village or a large hamlet, were they are referred to as houses.

The local government was changed just before the last local elections for the CG (county councils) You have: counties/departments; cantons; and communes. The number of cantons in the departments were drastically reduced, which resulted in the PS loosing quite a number of seats. Where I am, the department of the Charente had cantons with only five or six communes, then my commune became part of a new canton with 92 communes,. This change reduced the CG chamber to 38 councillors for 19 cantons. Even the leader of the council, Michel Boutant, who had been leader for over 14 years, lost his seat. Each canton has a pair of councillors, as each party's candidates must be in pairs: male and female: a very fair system. (If you need to look at your department, just google cg and the number of the department, e.g. cg16.fr is for the Charente.) Further up the line, the regions (with their own governments) were also trimmed. Poitou-Charente, was to be hived off to Le Centre, but the chaipersons of the departments staged sit-outdides of the Préfectures, demanding to join Aquitaine. The Paris mob relented! That is why Hollande gave his ex girlfriend, Ségolene, the ministry of the environment: because she was the president of Poitou-Charente!! Jobs for the girls, so to speak! Bretagne was left alone, for obvious reasons!

Down here the locals give Paris the finger, and when any Parisiens appear, they start speaking in a mix of Occitan, patois and langue d’Oc, and I’m sure the Bretons have a similar weapon, besides blocking the roads.

The continent is something else!

27

"In the UK my husband and I both run business but only my husband''s online business will be coming with us. He makes plastic replacement parts for airrifles and I am also involved in the making, packaging and administration of the business. Can we transfer the business to France or is it classed as starting a new business?"

First, when you move to France and run a business, the business has to be registered in France, so to all intents and purposes it is like starting a new business.

My advice would be to sort out first of all what business structure you will register under. You say you will be working in the business, so you can't register under the simple 'micro entreprise' (auto entrepreneur as was) status because that is strictly a one-person business. Also the turnover is limited and may not allow you to earn enough to keep a family, also you cannot offset expenses against turnover, so lots of reasons why that is not a good business structure for you. Therefore you will be looking at a more complex regime. It would have been good to sort this out in advance but definitely don't leave it too long because it can take a while to set up, it's important not to rush it because setting up under the wrong regime can make the a big financial difference, and until you have the business correctly registered and trading you won't have any healthcare in place. It's not like the UK where you can just get on with your activity and declare the income at the end of the year - here you need a siret number (business registration number) before you are allowed to trade, issue invoices, etc. Issuing an invoice with a French address and no siret number is an absolute no-no.

28

You will probably also need to provide some sort of proof that you are qualified to do what you are doing as not having those qualifications raises a whole raft of insurance and other liability questions. No qualification = no work in France, we believe very firmly that there has to be some sort of evaluation of a person's skills culminating in a certificate before people can start selling goods or services to the public. One of the things which many Anglo-Saxons see as stifling red tape but which we see as a safeguarding measure for all concerned.

29

We currently sell through our website and ebay. The customer is sent a PayPal receipt and that's basically it.

Would a CSE in metalwork (from school which is where my OH learnt how to use a lathe) count? I'm not sure if there is a qualification he can get for what he does. He has designed his products himself and makes them himself. I then do the finishing work, put together the kits and package them.

Someone above mentioned we could do the ae/me with spouse as part of the business. He is classed as a sole trader in UK

30

The point is that if you are running the business from your home in France, you MUST be registered. Otherwise you are breaking the law and could be penalised heavily. If you're not registered there is no mechaism for you to declare your income and pay your cotisations, and working and not paying cotisations on the income is what is known as 'working on the black'.

As regards micro and conjoint collaborateur, it is possible but it's not usually a good option. Micro works best for a simple one-person business with a low turnover and lower than average overheads. It doesn't sound as if your business ticks any of those boxes. You need to do the sums. If you choose the right business regime you should end up paying cotisations and business charges of around 40 per cent of profit, if you choose the wrong regime you could well lose over 50 per cent of profits in cotisations and business charges.

I notice you're not moving till January so you have time to look into it. There are websites where you can enter your business details and household details and get projections of what you would pay on each regime. If this is going to be your family income you need to get it right.

31

We definitely want to be registered. We totally believe in paying into the system you use.

Our overheads are actually pretty low as there are no wages. I will check out the turnover thresholds and see if I can find that website for projections.

Thank you

Karen

32

Fair enough, you said postage costs and presumably you have raw materials costs too so it sounded like a lot of overheads but if not then OK.

33

We are fortunate that our raw materials don't have a high cost.

We do charge the customers postage and then use this to cover the costs. Will we have to declare postage received as income but not be able to put those costs through as expenses? It's not a huge issue as the postage costs are actually lower than from UK! :-)

I feel that I should have split my original question into business and health/daughter.

34

Karen, If your expenses are low, then use the autoE system. Only one of you needs to be registered, but declare dependents. When you register, describe your business as selling leisure accessories. As far as I know, you aren't required to specify the specific items. Because you make the things yourself, for your own business, you don't need to prove any skills. If you were repairing things for other people, then that's a different kettle of fish. You may have to satisfy your insurers that your products are safe.

You will have to calculate if the "micro" is better than the "auto" etc. The non auto schemes require cotisations in advance, and these can be upped by the officials, the following year. The Auto was introduced to combat the black, and by introducing a "cheapie" system, brought in quite a bit if cash, which wasn't available before. Not unlike, when Maggie introduced the 25% basic tax. People found that by paying that, it was cheaper than paying an accountant! The treasury raked in millions! When Sarko introduced the Auto, the percentages were a couple points less, but the scheme is still cheap.

Most Autos don't have business names, just the person trading. So transferring a business doesn't arise. If your business in the UK has a fancy name, and you want to keep it, then you can trade under that name. As far as i know, they have introduced the compulsory “training” sessions for the Auto. This already exists for the other more complicated schemes. It’s a two week thing, and in some areas they used to have an english version.

The online forms for the Auto aren't that complicated. The quarterly declarations, which are sent out only have 4 sections:

630,,,, ventes de merchandises 14.30%

645 presentations de services commerciales ou artisanales 24. 60%
684 autres presentations de service 25.10%
572 formation artisan obligatorire ,30%

I attach a scan of the back of a recent RSI form sent to me.

35

Thanks Vincent

From 2016 I think they've amalgamated the systems into micro enterprise.

As we make and sell our own items will it be vente merchandise or artisan?

36

I'd go for vente, because the overheads for artisans can be quite high, if it involves diesel, van assurance etc. on top of the 25%.

I presume the clients pay the postage, so that doesn't come into the equation.

I knew they had messed up the system, because there was a report on french telly some time last year, which said that the RSI had a whole lot of other things dumped onto it, resulting on a backlog of over one million un-processed files! Basically, it was admitted that chaos reigned!

When I was in France, last Avril, a RSI form arrived, even though I'm no longer involved, and it was no different than what came before.

37

A couple of clarifications because Vincent's posts may be a little misleading:

Auto entrepreneur no longer exists, it has been renamed micro entrepreneur and is very slightly different.

If you both work in the business then you must declare this, you can't pretend that only one of you does.

You can't pick which category you want to be in. Vente is for resellers who buy, add a markup and resell. If you convert raw materials into a produce, that is Artisan.

If you opt for micro, you declare and pay cotisations on turnover, ie everything you receive from customers. You can't offset the cost of materials, nor the cost of postage, nor any other costs. The 'average' overheads for your sector are built into the calculation. That's why it's a good option if your overheads are lower than average; break even if they are spot on average; and a poor choice if they're higher than average.

38

If a husband has a business, it is taken for granted that he supports his wife. If she isn't getting a salary, then she isn't part of the business. If you have to include the postage in the gross, then you have to put a surcharge of the RSI % onto it.

Registering as an artisan can lead to proving you are qualified, which could be a problem.

I forgot to mention the little extra tax on the work place, if you work from home. An annual charge of €121 paid to the local tresor publique, and is separate from the RSI. A circular was sent out a few months ago clarifying this. There used to be commercial rates, but Sarko abolished them, but some sort of loophole gave the tresor P the chance to demand this money.

39

"If a husband has a business, it is taken for granted that he supports his wife. If she isn't getting a salary, then she isn't part of the business."

I don't think URSSAF see it quite like that, or why did they invent the conjoint collaborateur status? Either you help with the business, ie you work, or you don't. If you do, you pay cotisations as an economically active person. If you don't work, ie you are inactif, then you register with PUMA as an inactif and pay cotisations as a lower percentage of household income. But claiming to be inactif when in fact you're working, is cheating.

Inactive partners can no longer be covered as the dependent of the working partner because the ayant droit status no longer exists as of 1st Jan this year.

The CFE tax kicks in in your second calendar year of trading, it has to be paid online (no paper bills are sent out any more) and it varies from commune to commune (it's based on the same formula as the property taxes). 121€ would be very cheap, mine is around 3 times that.

40

Hi there, I've made friends very quickly using Facebook groups such as Expats in the Limousin so do look online within FB for expat contacts in your region.