Irish citizenship?

General Discussion
21

Relax :slightly_smiling_face:

Why do you jump to the conclusion I’m just British? I’ve actually had very deep associations with both London and Dublin from childhood onwards. I’ve held both passports for over fifty years. I wouldn’t mind a French one too, as others here have obtained. But despite my long term commitment to France I don’t think I’m French enough.

As for keyboard warrior, I would love to explain my point of view to you face to face. I know many people who have acquired Irish passports since Brexit and good luck to them, I’m all for people availing of whatever “loopholes”, for want of a better word, that exist.

But that doesn’t change my view that just adopting citizenship of a country for convenance isn’t what citizenship should be all about.

Ireland’s independence was hard won and the subsequent years included a civil war that dived society until well into the seventies, dreadful poverty and the domination of a malign Catholic Church. These were big prices to pay and all citizens should be aware of them.

However she continues to punch well above her weight on the World stage and being a citizen of the Country should be seen as a privilege, something to be proud of, not just an airport fast track pass.

There’s nothing offensive in my thinking that, and I think most rational people, even those that have availed of the law, would agree.

Just as an aside, how deep is you affiliation with Ireland, how often have or do you and/or your partner visited Ireland. Do you, for example, know why this “loophole” exists?

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22

One of the problems I had was that many records were destroyed in a fire affecting the Records Office in 1922 during the Civil War. There was no trace of my grandparents’ wedding certificate that should have dated from about 1910, so I included the documents I had (birth and death certs for both, and my mother’s birth cert) together with a covering letter explaining the marriage and that was deemed sufficient.

A further complication if you’re searching for Irish ancestors is that in the 19th Century (and possibly at other times) Irish birth certificates were written in Latin which doesn’t have equivalents for many names that originated from the same root.

As an example, my Grandfather (John) was recorded as Johannes, as was his brother Jack. Luckily I knew his birthdate so could identify the correct one.

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23

Completely agree. That well known publication, the EU border guards guide is clear and helpful. It says (paraphrasing from memory) that for non EU citizens accompanying their EU spouses on their travels, as long as they both never spend more than 3 months in any 1 EU country at a time, they can carry on doing this more or less indefinitely, irrespective of the normal Schengen limits of 90 days in any 180 days.

As I’m spending more than 3 months here accompanying my EU wife (ie as a French permanent resident), I am obliged to get a CdS by EU regs. Irrespective of the obligation, I have needed to show the authorities and/or regulated organisations that I have a valid CdS (for example) for the UK to France driving license exchange, for opening Assurance Vie accounts, and (had I proceeded with it) an application to CPAM to join Assurance Maladie.

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24

In an ideal world, I’d agree. But there are presumably a variety of reasons that people apply for citizenship of another country? For some it will be for genuine convenience, for others as an insurance policy to escape a hostile regime, eg the many Hong Kong inhabitants who acquired forms of UK passports in the run up to, and post 1997.

I understand there are some 5.5 million UK passport holders who live outside the UK (per the BBC and IPPR, a think tank). I doubt that all of them have an emotional attachment to the ethos of UK citizenship, and strongly suspect that for some it will be an open sesame to safety and security.

Whilst non EU people from the UK wanting to settle in the EU are not in the same category, I see absolutely nothing wrong in people availing themselves of the legal opportunity to acquire a passport for huge convenience, and wouldn’t presume to judge their motives. I would absolutely do the same in their shoes. Indeed I explored the Irish citizenship option, having numerous Irish great grandparents but I am 1 generation too distant. I am lucky (for many reasons!) to be married to an EU citizen, so can live here in France relatively easily.

Genuinely interested to hear more…

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25

Am in a similar situation with my wife being the daughter of an Irish born mother, as mentioned by others a CDS is the best way forward once your husband has his EU passport. I’m also entitled to apply for Irish citizenship via an Irish grandfather, but have to get onto the FBR first, before applying for a passport.
Regarding the comments about whether this fits with other people’s ideas of what citizenship should mean - you’re following the law, harming nobody and contributing to the EU as an EU citizen/resident once you move there. Last time I checked, Ireland is a member of the EU and has benefits from the EU regardless of where it’s citizens (new or old) choose to reside.

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26

Thanks Andy, my feelings in a nutshell. Good luck with your future move :+1:

27

I’m an Italian citizen (US/IT dual) as my 4 grandparents who immigrated to the US in the early 20thC never naturalized. I didn’t ‘apply for citizenship’ . The way the Italians view it is that I was an Italian citizen from birth- it isn’t anything I acquired. I was simply an undocumented one until I took the initiative to get my paperwork in order. Then I was simply ‘recognized’.

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28

Bullied by Brexit

My Irish passport came through a couple of months ago, and I’m certainly looking forward to using it for the first time.

Prior to the 180 Day Rule, I would spend anything from three to five months a year in France, but having familiarised myself with my potentially complicated tax affairs in the UK, the last thing I needed was a wholesale change of Tax Regime by becoming a French Resident.

I also wondered whether my meagre income would satisfy the interviews under Macron’s extended offer of Residency, so I dithered, then I rolled the die, as I knew that I had Irish born Grandparents on one side, (Scottish/AngloJewish on the other!).

As soon as I got back to England, I started applying for Death and Marriage Certificates. It helped that many of the Irish Databases are free to access, unlike the English ones that appear to have ben sold off (to an American/Israeli company?). Early Spring I launched my Application and posted of my documents, advised online that a delay of some 18 months was currently the norm. Then the first Covid Lockdown kicked in. The Foreign Births Register Office was closed , and we were advised that no further documents would be accepted for the moment. It took over three years from start to finish. Or was it four?

Lessons learnt:

Unfortunately my daughters are not eligible, though they would have been if I had gained Citizenship before they were born.

The Irish Gov. website is clunky, and that’s not intended as a criticism, but can easily prove misleading. Triple check everything, including all assumptions. The Irish Gov’t has to provide similar online services as all other European countries, and the population and tax takes are small. The online guidance notes were not the best, and potentially useful links simply didn’t exist - separate checks on Google are recommended.

Ensure that whoever you use to verify your identity provides a daytime landline number, preferably one with a traditional receptionist, and not a personal mobile one. My verifier didn’t recognise the number and simply didn’t pick-up. In due course warn the replacement that they will be interrogated.

I have friends in the UK who both have German-born mothers, and most surprisingly they proved ineligible for Citizenship - it would have been different if they had German-born Fathers it transpires. Each EU Member State has it’s own eligibility rules.

I consider myself lucky. Thanks Martha Kinsella (Catholic, Dublin) and Victor Conn (Methodist, Belfast), who under secrecy ran off together to Liverpool, marrying in the Registry Office November 1919, I’m very grateful. I have a single memory of meeting them. They had 7 children together.

They moved abroad for convenience and necessity, and I’ve sort of done the same, but in the reverse direction.

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29

Wow Jim, some really worthwhile info and tips here, thanks. Love the story of your grandparents too, God bless them :heart:

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I’d be interested to know if you have the same feelings toward immigrants from third world countries, who are coming to EU countries without a penny, but wish to obtain citizenship of a country they have never visited and/or know nothing about.

31

Hi Brian, we’ve been fairly lucky really. I did have knowledge of the fire that destroyed some of the records, and that was a concern, but getting my mother-in-law’s birth certificate and her mother’s (for good measure) proved quite easy. Just waiting for my in-laws marriage certificate to arrive, and we can start the process.

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32

I’m glad you’re progressing well.

Unfortunately, at the start of searching for the birth certificates all I knew was that my Grandfather had been born in County Cork and he was known variously as John Sullivan or John O’ Sullivan. When I started my search, I was presented with an unreasonably large cadre of candidates!

One tip from me. On occasions when I became stuck I phoned the Foreign Births Registry or Citizenship Dept as appropriate for assistance. Every time, I was quickly passed to a friendly, knowledgeable person who gave instant and practical help.

I hope all goes smoothly for you.
Brian

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33

It’s quite a different scenario to seek citizenship of a country to which you’ve moved than that of taking a passport of convenience.

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34

I wish I was more sensible in my formitive years and not thinking life was just a game!
I spent 20 of my first 23 years of life in Ireland, school, college, family paid taxes there, played club rugby - badly, loved the place, and its young ladies, but before I decided the next game was Australia (for £10, why not? bargain!), never thought to apply for citizenship that I could have gained easily! The same regret when I left Australia twelve years later! :joy:

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35

It would have been even larger if his name was Oli O’Sullivan… :rofl:

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36

Is it? Is it really? Tell that to a huge population of the UK. I’m sure they wouldn’t agree with you, especially the women that are being sexually assaulted by said immigrants on a daily basis, and the shop keepers who are being are robbed, and the people of London who have streets looking like some sort of badly organised souk. How is my convenient citizenship, and contribution to French society worse than that?
You clearly have caught the woke mind virus, poor love.

37

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your tips and comments :slightly_smiling_face:

38

Straight into the bin with you for the ad hominem.

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39

Ha ha ha :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

40

It’ll be time to introduce some recipes soon :roll_eyes:

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