From an Irish perspective the bullies, hypocrites and religious fanatics have just has the stuffing kicked out of them. A wonderful thing to behold. Maybe there is a God 
Now with appropriate legislation, education, contraception and support the pragmatic, genuinely caring folk can work reduce to the need for elective termination while also caring for those impacted by FFA, rape and incest. That includes people of faith Bishop says Yes vote on abortion presents āexhilarating challengeā
So glad they have at last being overthrownā¦Apart from the rain,the stranglehold of religion is the other reason I have shied away from ever visiting Irelandā¦Since the vote, there has been the predictable radio debates where pro-lifers (aka Sister Bernardette and the Sisters of mercyā¦anything butā¦), trot out the same old argumentsā¦so I anticipate there will be quite a fight against the movement to extend this to the Northā¦I hope it happens soon. By the way I hope that I will be able to write into my will that I can euthanise myself or give someone permission to act for me preferably with a hefty but pleasurable dose of morphine, when I feel the time is right, legally, in Franceā¦I donāt want to get to the point where I am my beloved cats last supperā¦
Thank you Mandy, I have 5 daughters and half of my pupils are young women so it is something I have discussed and thought about a lot.
Compared with live births in the region of 770,000 it actually seems quite high to me - suggesting that as many as 1 in 5 pregnancies are being aborted (around 1 in 6 miscarry, by the way).
I remain pro-choice on this matter though.
I admit to not having researched the annual live birth rateā¦is it growing or fallingā¦??? The 1 in 6 miscarry rate seems worryingly high and devastating for those experiencing it sometimes multiple timesā¦
It is generally considered to be 1 in 6 at least because it includes all those miscarriages which happened before the women even knew they were pregnant.
An og/ gyn friend of mine said that any other branch of medicine with their āfailureā rate would be lambasted.
I stand by what I said Stevieā¦ When men can have babies then they can choose whether or not to have an abortion if necessary.
Do you really believe that its something that any female takes lightly ? Do you have any idea of what happens to any female who finds herself in such a position? Do you understand anything about the pain and trauma that has to be gone through? Do you have any idea of the heartache and guilt that some women carry around with them for the rest of their lives?
Of course not, you are a man and thankfully will never have to go through any of this. Some men do try to understand, if all you can do is quote figures and talk about abortion being used in place of contraception then I have nothing more to say other than donāt judge something that you have no intimate knowledge of. Thank goodness that all men are not like you !
The number of births is falling in the UK - in fact I think 2016 was 748,000 but wasnāt sure what year the 190,000 abortions came from.
It is estimated that 1 in 4 women will experience a miscarriage.
The high rate suggests that some women, at least, use abortion as contraception - but a competently carried out termination is less risk to health than carrying the pregnancy to term - not to mention the fact that an unwanted pregnancy can trap people into poverty and children born into that sort of environment are often disadvantaged from the outset.
Better use of contraception would be preferable but the evidence has always been that you wonāt stop the unwanted pregnancies and if you deny women access to abortion many will use backstreet services. You can, however, stop the risk to a womenās health that illicit practitioners pose and/or mitigate some of the impact of unwanted pregnancies on both the mother and the child so itās all a bit of a no-brainer as far as I am concerned.
And as for the Catholic Church - it has hardly covered itself in glory recently with revelations as to the treatment of unmarried mothers by Catholic nuns so I am afraid none of its arguments sway me in the slightest.
I think the 190,000 abortion rate was from the 2016 pdf that Mandy posted as I was just about to post the same linkā¦but a miscarriage is not the same as an abortion so I donāt see how the rate of the former has any bearing on the rate of the latterā¦??? The figures seem to suggest that the vast majority of abortions are carried out in the first trimester and many well before 12 weeksā¦the U.K. will abort up to 24 weeks but there are very few carried out at that stageā¦according to the data in that pdf then up to 18 years old represents only a small fractionā¦I find it really hard to believe that any woman of whatever age would use abortion as a preferable method of contraceptionā¦???
I didnāt mean to imply that there was any connection - it is just that it can be useful to keep the natural rate at which pregnancies fail in mind when discussing abortion.
Miscarriage is, of course, devastating for mothers - made worse that modern medicine can confirm pregnancy so early and even give you pictures to bond with - without any discussion of the fact that it is a relatively common occurrence. Nor do some maternity units seem to offer much (or any) support to women who miscarry, leaving them to feel that they are the only one it has happened to and that somehow they have failed.
I know you didnāt mean to imply that and I didnāt mean to imply any misunderstanding either so posed my thoughts as questionsā¦yes I agree miscarriage leaves women feeling that it was somehow their faultā¦husbands and partners tooā¦one of my daughters had a foetus die inside of her (17 weeks) after successfully carrying her first twoā¦she was admitted to hospital to āgive birthā and was quite traumatisedā¦she agreed to tests but not autopsy and nothing was found to shed any light on whyā¦all told and with her āspiritualā not religious outlook on life she handled it wellā¦she booked her partner into private councilling sessionsā¦he has never gotten over it but uses it as a big stick to make her feel badā¦,fortunately the last time he threatened to kill her she just calmly called the police and he backed offā¦she volunteers for womenās aidā¦Iām really proud of herā¦
An abortion where the motherās and babyās life are at risk is morally equivalent to one where the woman decided to get pregnant and change her mind?
That argument only works if you say that the foetus never has any value before birth, I think.
Well, the State - in the form of Social Services - frequently does step in.
I donāt believe you can really have such a bleak view of humanity as you suggest when you talk of unwanted children. Are you sure youāre not having to talk like that because youāve adopted (sorry for the pun) a position in favour of abortion and that leads you to believe that unexpected pregnancies are invariably a burden?
Adoption serves two purposes. It avoids abortion, and it provides babies to those who couldnāt otherwise have them. A win-win, surely, especially for a country whose birthrate is falling.
Finally, we seem to agree!
Morally there is no difference, a foetus is being removed and disposed of. That was what article 8 said and is why eg Savita Happalanvar died.
Choice is crucial. If you donāt want to have an abortion, donāt have one. But you have no right to prevent someone else from having one.
I actually think that Iād prefer not to continue this discussion, weāll just have to agree to disagree.
I worked with MSF training midwives among other things and have worked with young people for the past 25 years, I think I probably have more of a realistic overview than you do, arrogant as that may seem.
I also believe that a person never in a position to bear a child themself doesnāt have the right to decide for the other half of the population.
Bonne soirƩe.
I hope you donāt think this a cop out, I am currently in my 3rd consecutive week off work because I am rather ill and I simply donāt have the energy for this right now.
OMGā¦I canāt believe you just said that about āsocial servicesāā¦holding them up like some sort of god when social services as regards to child services are as dysfunctional as itās possible to getā¦Have you any idea of how many social workers involved in child protection services are resigning due to unworkable workloads and just not being able to cope with the sheer number of children removed from their families when they can see that there is no justificationā¦??? I personally know of a mother who has had 3 social workers assigned to her case resignā¦(all of African heritage) because they can see how screwed up social services involved in child protection and secretive family courts really areā¦The miscommunication is immenseā¦any social worker with even an ounce of integrity canāt stay in the jobā¦chairmen and chairwomen of āchild protection meetingsā are horrified about how this case has been handledā¦the second but last social worker that resigned apologised profusely but said he really wasnāt cut out for the job and wished the mother well with getting her child back from an on the police record abuserā¦What in hell is wrong with thatā¦???
Not a cop out at all Vero, rather that too much negative energy from someone who will never be in such a position himself is draining and you donāt need it.
I do hope that you will soon be back on form and ready to give us all more of your wisdom and common sense, believe me your contributions are much appreciated.
Warm thoughts coming your way, get well soon ā¦
Well said Ann! Time to put out a troll alert!!
Thank you for your responses, which I found very illuminating.
VĆ©ro, I hope you feel better soon.
John, I expect you have seen this - a Waterford Whispers classic - required reading for all Irish abroad - or anyone else for that matter!
Irish No Campaign Sells NO Posters to the DUP - USeful for all manner of thingsā¦
I think a lot of Waterford folk were Yes Teresa 
This https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/29/brexit-ireland-referendum-experiment-trusting-people is worth a read. Relevent to understanding the Brexit situation too.