Morning John, Anna is right, the dividends won’t be added up to your AE / ME income BUT they will have to be declared on another line which will be taxed totally differently (it then depends on the kind of dividend, is it plus-value, stocks, etc.?).
Just for information, if you are doing multiple activities (declared as such, so for example artisan + sales retail) then your revenue will be added up and the maximum threshold will still be based on the maximum allowed for one of the activities you are doing. In that example, artisan’s limit is 33,100€ and retail would be 82,800€ so your total income shouldn’t exceed 82,800€ (artisan + retail)… If you are a couple, it is possible to have 2 separate activities though, multiplying by 2 these figures
To get back to your dividend note that the amount you get do matter because if the total household income exceed a certain amount (26,764€ for a single or 53,528€ for a couple) then it is not possible to opt-in for the ‘prélèvement libératoire’ which means the national taxes will probably be more painful.
As a quick example, if you’d like to calculate your national taxes ‘au réel’ so not with the ‘prélèvement libératoire’ here’s an example:
Let’s assume a global income of 60,000€ for a couple
The ‘taxable revenue’ would be: 60,000 / 2 (couple) so 30,000€
The first 9,710€ of these 30k€ aren’t taxed
From 9,710 to 26,818 you are taxed at 14% so 2,395€ in that case
Then from 26,818 to 71,898 it is 30% so 954€ here
Adding things up you get roughly 3,350€ that you shall multiply be 2 (as you are a couple) to get your total taxes to be paid so 6,700€ in that example.
Hope this make sense, happy to answer any question(s)
Because I have been looking to earn some extra cash and that “Artiste Libre” no longer exists (which would have permitted me to work and declare just like in the UK), I started to look into the only alternative for selling any craft work. The solution was “Auto entrepreneur”, Which is:
46€ every trimester.
A yearly insurance of 120/140€ (depending on the insurance company)
A max of income (as mentioned on this thread) which does not allow to take off any expenses such as traveling or material needed to start up a business.
Then there is the “LE TAXE PROFESSIONALE” this will depend on where you live, as it is your location that determines the amount of tax you will have to pay.
An extremely rough estimate without "le taxe professionale"is:
24€ a month or 300€ a year without having earnt a penny… OK, not a lot you might say if you are not looking just for some “pin money” to buy the grandkids christmas presents , etc.
Example: So if you go out & buy a pile of material to make some aprons to sell at a fair, you might have to think twice about how much money you have to invest & how many aprons you will have to sell before you get your money back & start earning the “real” money… before the “Le taxe professionale”.
Many young french people are having to abandon this solution “Auto-entrepreneur” and are complaining about it. Apparently, rummers have it that, (the people above in government) are going to scrap it.
How come I know this?
For the past two years I have worked as a VDI (no charges but attached to an enterprise & only 30%benefit) and I have met over a hundred different people trying to survive on selling hand made stuff. Plus I have lived here for the past 48 years and have a lump on my forehead from banging it against the wall due to the exasperating french system. haha…ha.
Vive La France… or sell in the UK? That is my question.
Still looking for a solution.
I think the trouble is, that some people seem to think that micro entrepise should be some kind of miracle panacea. It’s not. It’s a very good solution for some business models, and no good at all for others. Like most things. But just because it doesn’t suit everybody and not everybody can adapt their business model to suit it, is that a reason to scrap it altogether? Do you throw a radio away because you want to watch TV and your radio can’t receive TV?
It is after all a business structure, and it does assume that if you register a business you’re going to operate it in a business-like way. So like all businesses you are expected to have some kind of plan. I don’t honestly see anything particularly outrageous or unreasonable about having to think about your expected returns on investment so that you know if it’s a good business decision or not - it would be odd if you didn’t.
I’m defending it not because I think it’s perfect, but because it’s worked very well for me for the last 7 years, and I think it’s clear from the success of the “Les Poussins” movement last time it came under threat that it has a huge amount of support. Les Poussins are still working to improve the régime so why not join them rather than knocking it: http://www.defensepoussins.fr/qui-sommes-nous/
Hi Jan, actually I’m not sure you fit in the right category as being registered as an ‘Artiste’ has its rules in France like many things
To keep it simply, as an artist you have to declare your revenues to the ‘maison des artistes’ which is different than the AE / ME. Then, once per year you declare how much you’ve earned on your national tax form, two options here:
Total turnover of your royalties (if they can be assimilated as a payroll - in French the box is names ‘Droits d’auteur’)
OR total revenue to be written in the box ‘BNC’ + increased by 15%
Based on your statement(s) the taxes are calculated using the following maths:
8% of 98,25% of your turnover (the value of your fees or product without VAT) => This is the ‘CSG-CRDS’ tax
1,10% of your annual turnover for the social security
6,90% of your annual turnover for the national pension
0,35% of your annual turnover for the CFP (taxe professionnelle)
Please note that these maths are just an example because in some cases some of the previously cited taxes are prepaid by the intermediary (so you have to be careful when declaring those revenues to the ‘Maison des artistes’ in order to avoid being charged twice).
Difference with the AE / ME is that there is no minimum so if you’ve been charged that means you’ve made (and declared) some revenues. By the way, if you don’t declare enough revenues you won’t be eligible for that status much longer so in the end everything should make sense.
That topic is particularly complex (the status ‘Artiste’) so we may want to open another post for that
Anna asked the right question, as I’ve explained earlier if you are an ‘Artist’ there are no minimum taxes so 0€ income = 0€ taxed.
And as we’ve debated a lot, as an AE / ME if 0€ income you only have to pay the CFE which is the ‘taxe professionnelle’ AND you are exempted the first year (fair enough in my honest opinion don’t you think)?
If you are being taxed that means you are making some revenues… Then you may be entering your revenues in the wrong box and therefore are being taxed too much… These revenues should be micro BIC so the taxes should be 13,4% of the global turnover. I suppose your profit is more than that when you are crafting something (even considering the raw materials)?
As for the insurance it is not mandatory, except if you are doing some kind of exhibitions (in that kind that is asked from the exhibitor not the state ;)). So you can’t blame the state for having your business covered to be fair.
Finally, the max income for the micro BIC as we’ve already discussed is more than 80k€… with a tolerance up to 90k€… clearly enough to earn some extra cash don’t you think?
Of course if you are doing more than these figures OR if your profit is less than 13,4% then you can apply for the ‘Entreprise Individuelle’ and declare your charges / materials / expenses up to the real expenses… but in that case the taxes will be 45% of your profit
Yes but what is the 46€ per quarter for? Is this your insurance premium?
As Fabien says, I think you may have a rose tinted vision of how artiste libre works. As I have always understood it, you need to have a good portfolio and CV and be earning a pretty good living as an artist to be accepted by the MDA, they will want to see invoices and sales history and examples of your work.
As for copying the UK system, I doubt if France is ever going to want to do that. Even if it did want to, I don’t see how it would work. Its social security system is based on completely different principles from the UK’s. But more than that, its whole attitude to work is different - in France you don’t work purely for personal profit, you work because that is how individuals contribute to the society that they live in; it supports them and they support it…
Thanks for your reply! The possibilities before under “artiste libre” was not specifically and only for artists. La maison des artistes has always existed for that.
I’m looking for the slot for creative people which could be anything creative.
Great to see this thread still lit up. I am in the middle of moving house and off then off to a one week tradeshow but I’ve an idea I want to execute, to create a resource that will help the community here on this subject. Love the back and forth and keep you all posted as a very busy January wraps up.
I think I don’t understand what are you trying to ‘achieve’ with that status?
To get back to the basis here are your options when trying to earn some extra cash:
If you don’t intend to get the VAT back nor edit any invoice then you can just sell the stuff you want without any business to incorporate as long as you declare that on your national taxes and if your turnover don’t exceed a certain amount (I think it’s around 4,000€ per annum). Above 4,000€ you have to be incorporated.
If you want to get the VAT back and/or are selling for more than the tolerance, then you’ll have to be incorporated as a ‘Entreprise Individuelle au régime TVA réel’ (you can even deduct your expenses with that one)
If you need to edit some invoices but don’t know how much you’ll make as a turnover then the AE / ME is perfect, 0€ the first year (if you don’t make any money), only the ‘taxe pro’ the following years (if you do 0€ still).
Finally, if your turnover is more than 8,000€ then the status ‘Artiste’ is clearly suitable…
In any cases I’d say you have a pretty damn wide variety of choice… suiting all the possible scenario(s) IMHO
This is a fascinating discussion and timely for me right now. I am looking for advise on how I can manage a transition from Professional Liberale to AE. I am also wondering if this is the right thing to do?
My situation is that I have been a PL for 20+ years and was well over the limit for AE status until now. Due to a loss of my biggest contract last year my income has dropped from mid 2016. However I have read that as the income is still above the maximum for AE of 32,000 then I can not change until the end of 2017. does anyone have any experience of this?
I also want to start a new business alongside my existing which will be more of a hobby, selling photographs and I was hoping that this could come into an AE business. Now I am just confused! I should add also that I can take my retrait this year and was hoping to have the possibility to take my retrait and also continue to work self-employed. I really need some good advise on all of this I guess and its difficult to find any.
Any insights very welcome.
I’m sure Fabien will know for sure, but I don’t think you can normally change statut mid-year.
What particulary benefits do you see in changing to ME? Whether it’s the right thing to do, rather depends on what you are hoping to achieve by doing it…
Yes David - I’m afraid it is pedantic because the correct notation written in French (and I assume Fabien is indeed French) is 1.234,00€.
This website sadly blew up last year when contributers started chucking virtual stones at each other and some good expertise was lost. It would be better if contributers stuck to the point of a thread rather than contributing for the sake of it.
(Sorry if I have gone off topic Catherine and James !!)
Hi Barb, if you are a ‘prof lib’ you have to have a particular status (like the ‘Entreprise Individuelle’). If you are not incorporated as an EI then I suppose you are filling your revenues as ‘BNC’? The only difference is that is you fall under a certain threshold (32k for that matter) then you’ll be eligible for the ‘micro BNC’ (if and only if your are not incorporated as an EI, SARL, etc.).
The first question would then be, what is your exact profession? What are you doing / selling?
The AE / ME can be a side status for employees (on a payroll) so you can combine being on a payroll + AE. For the self employed it is an exclusive one, meaning you cannot have multiple AE BUT you can declare multiple activities under the same SIRET.
Thanks for your reply. I guess I am under the BNC regime! I know it’s a bit stupid but left all of this to my accountant over the years and his advise was always to remain with the same status.
Is the micro BNC the same as AE? Do I demand a change to this?