Gosh this thread has moved quickly! Thanks for all the personal stories. I have to smile at how many can relate to @Stella 's comment of “happy but impoverished”.
@Ever12every - We do have the DDT, but only because it was done for the previous buyer. In that sense, it seems we have far more information now than we would normally? I have the impression that the usual order of events is: offer letter > Compromis > lots of reports > Acte authentique.
It is not an old stone house, although we do find those quite charming. We’re looking for a newer, move-in-ready holiday home and this seems to fit the bill. It’s only about 20 years old and the extension was added about 11-12 years ago. As best I can tell, that means nothing falls under the décennale rule.
In English the ad says “excellent condition” and in French it says “en parfait état”. Based on that we assume everything should be working. But we’ve not been able to verify it ourselves. And you know what they say about assumptions.
Going back to the DDT, can someone confirm our interpretation of the wording? For the gas, the boiler is mentioned as raccordé, and “partiellement contrôle car: appareil à l’arrêt”. We originally took this to mean connected to the city gas, but since there’s a propane tank out back we now think it means it’s connected to that. We also take this to mean they couldn’t do a control because the boiler was off.
The footnote says “Notre cabinet s’engage à retourner sur les lieux afin de compléter le constat aux installations non contrôlées, dès lors que les dispositions permettant un contrôle des installations concernées auront été prises par le ropriétaire ou son mandataire.” So that means they need to come back, right?
The gas stove is mentioned as well, but it is listed as non raccordé. If the stove gas stove isn’t connected to the propane tank out back, should we expect to see a little tank under the cabinets? I feel so stupid we didn’t open everything but it seemed awkward to just root through someone else’s house!
Hope everyone had a good weekend and thanks again!
That’s why it’s a good idea to go back more than once. First time for the heart, second time for the head. Second time, find out what works, what doesn’t.
Seriously, you’re about to spend probably the most money on any single item in your life when you buy a house and you are worried about it seeming “awkward”!
It means they will return to finish checking what they couldn’t, as soon as measures permitting the checking of the equipment concerned have been taken by the owner or his/her representative.
Surely you would be able to check this with the Marie if your notaire cannot help you on the question of the extension ? If the Marie is not aware of planning permission/unaware of the extension then it sounds like they did not obtain permission.
SuePJ - Yes, I will have to get over being awkward and learn to be nosey.
Vero - Thanks. The agent claims the boiler was inspected last autumn but that the report is in the house. Same for the aircon. I guess we can root through the file cabinet on our next visit!
Annej2003 - Yes, we’re going to try to set an appointment at the mairie on the day before the signing.
By the way, I’m not saying we’re 100% going to sign. We have the appointment and we plan to go to it. We’ll visit the property and the mairie the day before. The notaire says we can modify any clause at that time and if we don’t agree then we walk away without signing.
Might be an idea to make the appointment for a few days in advance. If you ask questions to which they don’t immediately have the replies, that’ll give them/you breathing space.
Our Mairie sometimes has to say to someone… ah, Mme xxx covers that, she’ll be in next Thursday/whenever…
If the DDT was done over a year ago, will it have to be updated with the new additional tests that came in July 2021 when the items that could not be checked are done again.
@Stella - Because we’re a day’s drive away the best we can do is the day before. Perhaps if we call today and tell them what kind of info we need, that gives enough time? I might be asking too much of French organisation though…
@Elizabeth_Cox - The DDT was done in autumn 2021 so that is current enough. The DPE was done in 2019, but as I read on this thread, it is still valid. Maybe a more current one would be nice but I am sure they’d ask us to pay for it. I doubt it would change dramatically since the house is “newer”.
I don’t understand why buying a property in France should be any different to buying one in the UK. You wouldn’t buy a UK house without a full survey and if problems are found, you would either walk away or re-negotiate the price. If you are not 100% confident in your purchase, either get answers to make your decision or walk away. This is not some trivial holiday impulse purchase, it is a major investment and financial commitment!
It is very common to buy a house in France without a full survey paid for by the buyer - there is the diagnostic survey provided by the seller but this is quite different from a full survey - but it is possible to get one done.
In UK a minimal survey is normally required by the mortgaging bank to establish their risk but as a buyer you can get very detailed surveys if you are prepared to pay.
Yes, I am aware of that and we didn’t have a professional survey when we bought either. That is why we made sure of what we were buying and read the legal documents before signing.
The maxim has to be, if you don’t know exactly what it is you are spending your money on, then don’t buy!
I’ve watched sales fall-through, time and time again… here in my little commune… and in nearly all cases, it was because insufficient information was available… or, when it finally came to light it was “not good news”… and the Buyer opted out… sometimes even after placing the Deposit …
and I’m talking about French selling to French so there’s no language barrier involved…no “misunderstandings”
Nowadays, folk almost hold their breath until the absolutely last signing is done and dusted… “only then can one consider a property Sold”, they tell me solemnly.
Can someone please let me know whether this clause in the Compromis is acceptable? I read all the threads here on vice caché. I’m still confused as to whether vice caché means all defects, whether known by the seller or not, or only defects that the seller knew about but did not disclose. Here’s the clause. As I read it, we would only have recourse if the seller lied. If they didn’t know (or claim they didn’t) then too bad for us?
"L’ACQUEREUR prendra le BIEN dans l’état où il se trouve à ce jour, tel qu’il
l’a vu et visité, le VENDEUR s’interdisant formellement d’y apporter des modifications
matérielles ou juridiques.
Il déclare que la désignation du BIEN figurant aux présentes correspond à ce
qu’il a pu constater lors de ses visites.
II n’aura aucun recours contre le VENDEUR pour quelque cause que ce soit
notamment en raison :
des vices apparents,
des vices cachés.
S’agissant des vices cachés, il est précisé que cette exonération de garantie
ne s’applique pas :
si le VENDEUR a la qualité de professionnel de l’immobilier ou de la
construction, sauf si l’ACQUEREUR a également cette qualité,
ou s’il est prouvé par l’ACQUEREUR, dans les délais légaux, que les vices
cachés étaient en réalité connus du VENDEUR."
I think this is pretty normal as a clause.
A lot of sellers are scared at the idea that they might sell a property in good faith, and then a few years later the buyer could try to come after them for serious money because there was an issue that the seller had been totally unaware of, which may or may not have genuinely existed at the time of sale. So they protect themselves with this clause.
Claims under vice caché tend to hang on whether or not the buyer can prove that the seller knew about the fault.
Posting a little update. We spoke with the notaire regarding our continued concerns, and we walked away without signing. We had not yet paid the deposit. The seller had hidden so much that we didn’t feel we could trust them. They admitted to never getting a permit for the extension. That explained the discrepancy between the official paperwork showing one m2 and the advert showing another. It also explained why the tax foncière was so much lower than similar homes in the area.
The notaire said it’s very common for work to be done without permits in rural France, and that regularising after the fact is not always a big deal. However, we were cautioned that even though the paperwork ends up “correct” it doesn’t mean the actual work was done properly in the first place. The owner sends paperwork to the mairie declaring that works were done which conform to the codes, but the mairie may or may not check that’s true. Apparently, most of the time the mairie ignores this paperwork and thus tacitly agrees to regularisation - particularly if the changes have been up a long time and no one ever complained. We were advised that if we encounter a similar situation in the future we should hire a structural engineer or surveyor to give the house a more thorough inspection than the DDT covers.
What frustrated us most in this process was the constant reliance on “put it in the Compromis”. We wanted information up front to make an informed decision. Before signing! We did not want to sign and rely on hope and a few phrases in the contract that it would all work out. We hit roadblocks one after another.
We’ve learned valuable lessons and will continue our search. Thank you for all the help and advice so far. I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions at some point.
I agree with @_Brian , absolutely the right decision. When it comes to making decisions that involve a significant amount of money and personal involvment, you can’t compromise on these things. Plenty more out there.
