Petition to hold a referendum on final Brexit deal

(Paul Flinders) #21

Of course those who voted Remain would say that it was a vote for common sense - because it would have been. But Farage was very clear that he would consider it unfinished business had it been a close vote the other way. It pisses me off that we have to suffer the “remoaner” label when it is clear that we would have seen the same attitude from the leave crowd had the boot been on the other foot.

(Martin Cooper) #22

Not really democracy, when some of the most vested people, where not allowed to vote;

  1. People who are UK citizens who were not allowed to vote, via the 15 year rule.

  2. 16 and 17 year old, who’s future will be most at risk.

  3. EU Citizens living in the UK, who keep the tax revenue coming in and doing some of the jobs the native UK peeps, will not do.



(Michael Blackmore) #23

An old and irrelevant point Martin. Even if they had all voted to leave it would not have changed the result. Most of the expats I have spoken to in Cyprus voted to leave.

Michael Blackmore - Contact Using Hop

(David Martin) #24

Cyprus has struggled financially since they entered the EU and those living there are conscious of increased prices. It’s not surprising that they might have a negative view of membership.

(Martin Cooper) #25

Hi Michael, thanks for the reply.

The UK immigrants who live in France and I know, all voted to stay and the rest, would of voted to remain, if they democratically been allowed to vote.

Granted, the peeps I socialise with, would be in a higher % to vote remain, due to our outlook, in working and living in France.

Also, the 16 & 17 year olds, could of made a difference, if they were all allowed to vote.

Might be ‘old ground’ but not a level playing field.



(Tony PERLA) #26

The EU has only itself to blame for a fragmented response to one of the most massive migrations into Europe since a very long time. It should have reacted earlier. The reasons for the migrations are twofold. Religious for the Syrian refugees and Unemployment for the Africans.

Syrian migrants were fleeing a war provoked basically by two different sects - the Shiites and the Sunnis. It was only natural that close to 100% of refugees were Sunnite and should take refuge in Turkey, which is 65% Sunnite in population. Whilst high mid-African country unemployment has been raging for at least the past five years.

We (in the EU) should have seen it coming and undertake measures both more assertively and earlier. The EU Commission botched this one - and badly.

PS: Which is why Macron’s call for more not less political governance from the EU is necessary. Each EU country with its own foreign-policy is a dead-end.

(Michael Blackmore) #27

That is true but out of date now David. The Cyprus Government finances are considerably improved now although unemployment, especially in under 25s, is still high and the property business has pretty well collapsed. However there are other active and profitable businesses in Cyprus which are doing well and there is an activer Government program to attract new businesses into Cyprus which is quite successful. Its certainly not out of the wood but on the way. None of this has much to do with UK expats there as their incomes derive from UK sources. When UK leaves the EU it certainly creates a degree of uncertainty about their status in Cyprus but as they, like UK expats reliant on UK sourced incomes in other EU states, are a valuable source of foreign exchange and effectively an “export”. They contribute to the local economy, pay taxes in Cyprus but take little or nothing out as they do not draw Cyprus pensions or benefits and any healthcare costs are met by the UK. They also constitute about 1/5 of the population of the Republic of Cyprus so they are a major contributor to the economy. We won’t be “chucked out”. Whether or not the UK left the EU would have very little immédiate effect on Cyprus UK expats apart from the short term change in the exchange rate with the Euro so their decision cannot have been based on any immediate personal advantage - rather the reverse.

(Michael Blackmore) #28

Same as every other UK election of course and does not take account of the interesting observation that views change with age and experience. Several commentators have noted that although they voted to join the EU in the earlier referendum having seen how it has developed they have changed their position and this time voted to leave. Of course one cannot be sure how the views of young people today will evolve in the same way but they will evolve and change as they have always done. History does have lessons for us. The decision was a very mixed political and economic one and I am sure these two factors carried very different weight in different socio-economic groups.

All that said however the overall result was the largest vote for anything in the UK in generations and the turnout was pretty high. Unlike some I do not criticise or impugn anyone who voted the other way to myself nor do I characterise them as stupid, ill informed or naive. It was a free vote and each side should respect the other’s position. I regret that this seems ot be a minority point of view on this and other forums (? fora)

(Paul Flinders) #29

The problem is that, while not everyone, most people were ill informed - because the campaign (both sides) failed to present the real issues well - or indeed at all.

(Michael Blackmore) #30

I don’t really know what “most people” think or how they form their
opinions or on what information they base it. Clearly you have a very much
wider circle of contacts than I do.

(Martin Cooper) #31

I agree with Paul, that both sides of the debate were Ill informed and was not presented in a clear way for such an important decision, which will have consequences for a long period of time.

You don’t need a wide circle of contacts, to come to that conclusion, but a memory of how the debate was handled, (badly) by both sides.


(Paul Flinders) #32

You also do not need a wide circle of contacts to know that is simply how the majority approach voting - typically only the floating voters bother much with trying to look at the issues and many of those go no further than the campaign information.

(Tony PERLA) #33

We shall see.

But the signs are not the least bit encouraging. It begins, on a trade level, with Bombardier in Northern Ireland and it ends where?

For information, see here (in “pdf”): Statistics on UK-EU trade. Draw your own conclusions from the stats.

Here are mine: The UK-exit is threatening the most significant portion of both its total EU exports and imports. So my question is, “Why on earth affect any part of that balance by leaving the EU? What good can come from upsetting the status-quo in terms of UK employment?”

UK-Trade with the EU is almost as great as with the rest of the world. That is a very significant statistic.

I just can’t see any net-benefit for the UK affecting the balance by leaving the EU. On the contrary …

(Jane Williamson) #34

Paul, it seems that the politicians are now finding out all the ramifications of leaving.
No one was really able to take the argument to its full conclusion and we are all suffering from that.
Theresa May is keen to start trade talks but can’t seem to understand that the EU wants to finalise citizens’ rights, the Irish border question and final payments first.
Personally I cannot see a positive outcome to the Irish border question and I can foresee the DUP withdrawing from their arrangement with the Tories and another general election.

(Mike Kearney) #35

I would prefer to see a free vote in Parliament. The problem with government by referendum is that you are asking people with insufficient knowledge to make decisions about highly complex matters.
We elect MPs in the expectation that they will give careful thought to political proposals and vote in the best interests of their local community and the country as a whole.
If we decided everything by referendum, we would have capital punishment, flogging and compulsory castration. And if you are thinking that might not be such a bad idea, I have made my point!

(Tony PERLA) #36

It seems like a decade outside the EU is what is required to teach some stubborn Brits what a colossal mistake they have made.

Go for it … !