Reporting ISAs in the French system

[RICROM]

I gather that interest must be declared on these. Is there any difference in this depending on whether the accounts are cash interest or stocks and shares based? (Excuse me if I’m not using the correct definitions). For example, I have both, and it seems that my cash ISA interest was as a few pounds, whereas the stocks/shares balance went down by a few hundred pounds.

[graham]

There are a few Topics already on this subject for you to explore…

Tax treatment of ISAs

Hello is it true that this year they have changed 1) how we declare ISA “income” and 2) how it is taxed? I assume yes for the first question, as I no longer see “Revenue réputés distribués” on form 2047 which I had used for income declaration (e.g. distribution reinvested). For the second question, I read that all GAINS in value over the year, whether withdrawn or not, are taxed at 30% (presumably plus social charges at 17%). Is this right? And where on the form do I declare it?? David HUDDART Oise

Declaring Stocks & Shares ISA on French tax return

Hello - does anyone have any experience of this? I’m not sure which boxes to use or exactly what information I have to give. I gather I have to list my foreign accounts on CERFA 3916, but I’m guessing for a stocks and shares ISA they’ll want to know how much it’s worth. And for a UK based savings account? Any help or advice from those more experienced than me would be much appreciated - thanks!

and you may also find this one from a few days ago of interest:

Declaring a sold ISA

Hi folks. I sold an ISA last year. I know I probably should have filled in a form at the time to declare it, but I didn’t. Now I must declare the capital gain. But where is really the right place? is it ok in 2TS or should it be in 3VG? Or elsewhere? Any help would be grateful please…thanks so much.

There is also this years guide on completing the French Tax return:

Tax Help 2022 - latest update: 17/05/22

Once again it is time for the submission of French Tax returns. This year, I have created a series of pdf files to help in this regard which I shall link to in this first post in the topic for ease of reference. Please note that the pdf’s are stored in a discrete area of my on line Dropbox folder. You are welcome to freely download them and use them to assist in your task. May I suggest that you bookmark this topic so you can easily come back to it at any time. The link will remain in the fist post in the topic for ease of reference. Any changes/improvements that are made to the pdf’s will be automatically reflected in the link posted here which will avoid unnecessary multiple reposting of pdf’s basically containing the same information which, in turn, will hopefully save this topic from becoming too burdensome. Also, please respect the #stayontopic tag. It’s not used very often and only in special circumstances. Note that @cat has approved this use of the tag on this topic. May …

You can check for more by using the Search icon (magnifying glass) in the title bar…

[anon37731102]

Rather than you having to work your way through all those topics, (probably only to discover the answer you are seeking isn’t there):

You only need to declare ISA interest, etc if you withdraw money from the account (and therefore move it to a different account). Otherwise the changes in value of a cash or stocks and shares just accumulate within the ISA.

[RICROM]

That’s great news if it’s the case. Why therefore isn’t it made so clear elsewhere? For example, I’m sure I’ve read advice mentioning that gains must be taxed in France, and this advice makes no mention of the idea that this applies only to withdawals/ closures.

[Stella]

One can read all sorts of advice and after a while, one might well find that there are conflicting messages coming through.

If you want clear, advice on how to complete your Declaration, you can ask your questions and/or seek answers several ways
*face-to-face at your local Tax Office
*through the online message service on your own compte on the impots gouv fr website
*the special guide (in English) which @graham has put together on this Forum.

The French Govt does provide guidance/clear Notes (in French) for each section of the Annual Declaration of Worldwide Income - both in paper form and online. Anyone with a complex situation… can seek answers/help as mentioned above.

Phew, I think I typed that without drawing breath… I do hope you find the answers you need.

[anon37731102]

@RICROM

That’s great news if it’s the case. Why therefore isn’t it made so clear elsewhere? For example, I’m sure I’ve read advice mentioning that gains must be taxed in France, and this advice makes no mention of the idea that this applies only to withdawals/ closures.

If you think about it, individuals don’t report the gains/losses for their ordinary shareholdings each year (or usually for their properties or other capital assets). It is only when they are sold/change hands, etc. Otherwise it would be a bureaucratic nightmare to administer.

Properties can be slightly different in that the FISC does expect real annual property values to be declared when the total value is over 800,000€ for l’Impôt sur la Fortune Immobilière (IFI). They are now beginning to male a greater push to ensure this happens, given the property value inflation in some of France.

[JaneJones]

@anon37731102

You only need to declare ISA interest, etc if you withdraw money from the account (and therefore move it to a different account). Otherwise the changes in value of a cash or stocks and shares just accumulate within the ISA.

I have read that this is no longer the case, so if you had a share dealing account with a stockbroker in the UK each year you would declare in France the gains/losses and dividends whether cashed or reinvested. You would pay income tax on the dividends and +ve/-ve capital gains tax on the value/loss. Once you come to France the tax benefits of an ISA disappear and your account becomes exactly the same as the stockbroking share account.

[graham]

ISA’s are a difficult area and there is no one size fits all quick solution, which is why I posted the various links for the OP to look at further.
The best we can do on SF is to guide enquiries in the right direction unless there is a clearly referenced answer available.
I can well see that the response by @JaneJones holds more value.

[anon37731102]

@JaneJones

I have read that this is no longer the case, so if you had a share dealing account with a stockbroker in the UK each year you would declare in France the gains/losses and dividends whether cashed or reinvested. You would pay income tax on the dividends and +ve/-ve capital gains tax on the value/loss. Once you come to France the tax benefits of an ISA disappear and your account becomes exactly the same as the stockbroking share account.

As you wrote “cashed or reinvested”

If you don’t buy or sell shares within a stockbroker account holding you have nothing to declare as you haven’t crystallised anything.

If you just hold a ISA and don’t make any changes then you haven’t crystallised anything either. In a stocks and shares ISA, where I suspect most of the holding is one or more managed portfolios which do not change. If the portfolio mix is changed by the ISA owner then there has been a crystallisation and it would need to be declared.

It is no different from having a holding an investment trust or unit trust. You would not be expected to declare all the profits/losses made by the manager as they change the mix of holdings…

[JaneJones]

I don’t have one, so just a curiosity for me but I did always wonder how one could report the many tiddly transactions made within unit trust envelope.

So just declare the dividends that are reinvested?

[PBS]

OK, thanks everybody (very, very much). I will be studying all your advise in much more detail today. I hope it will lead to a final decision about the the right place to declare a sold stocks ISA.