More or less what I said, between us it seems to agree with what I have learned from my OH.
Notaires all have their own arrangements and I gather many of them are fairly useless anyway, so I can't comment there.
Hi Kathleen. Try this site: http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/en/jsp/site/Portal.jsp
This is the English version, and there is a link to calculate fees. Hope this helps.
Just found this site which seems helpful. http://francelegal.co.uk/articles/selling-french-property-associated-costs Sorry to have troubled you.
Thank you Brian. Are you able to tell me how the notaire's fees are worked out so that I can get an idea of what my costs might be? Also what other costs - e.g. experts' validations - might be involved?
I can't find detailed enough information in English and I'm worried about misunderstanding subtleties, legalese or jargon in French.
The other agent presumably signed a 'bon de visite' with the couple which makes any other approach from them personally or with another agent illegal. The original agency who showed them around will find this out and prosecute the couple. The practice is not only illegal but unprofessional so any other agent agreeing to do this isn't very 'scrupulous'.
Hi all,
my understanding is that the commission is deducted from the settlement price, so as long as your desired property selling price plus commission adds up to the settlement price, all works well. It must be remembered that, if the property is listed at a price that the vendor thinks the property is worth, the commission must be deducted from the settlement price which will be a reduced gain for the vendor. Effectively, the buyer pays the commission, but the vendor when determining the list price, must add the commission to the amount he wants to put in his/her pocket.
I hope I have it right!
I agree with Sheila as well.
Either. If the vendor pays the commission it because the compromis de vente is signed with an all inclusive price and the commission will be deducted from the sale proceeds once the mandat de vente is signed and money for the purchase, notaire, etc paid.
If the purchaser pays commission he/she must sign a mandat de recherche with the agent. It reduces legal costs a bit because they are then paid on the net price of the house excluding the agent's commission.
My OH does not like the latter because it makes extra work for her with no extra return and she believes most agents feel the same so go for the former to make life easier. However, the choice is available.
I thought that it is the buyer who pays the agent's commission in France? I get the impression from what is said here that it is the seller. Am I wrong?
I'm interested because I am nearly ready to put my house on the market.
Hi. Gillian, The legislation is clear: you can switch agents and sign with second one even if the first one has shown around the potential buyers. It is the buyers rights to go to a second agency and ask for a better price. But make sure you sign a mandat with the second agents and keep everything above board.
In any case, the first agent will probably not take this lying down. They might try to bully you into paying them regardless, seeing their buyers being snatched from under their noses. The question remains if you want to go into all this hassle just to save 1 or 2 percent.
For selling without an agent, try my site www.immogo.com. It is not as good as leboncoin.fr, but we do reach a about 15.000 Dutch and Belgium clients a month.
Thanks Andrew - I did think of Leboncoin but my French isn't good enough to deal with French speaking viewers - also leboncoin insist you register a French telephone number with them, which I don't have. I am on with a few other sites and have had a few viewers with Green-Acres, who seem pretty good, though no sale yet.
I think from what others have said, if the young couple have signed a viewing agreement with the agency I'm with, but understandably want to save money and buy through their friend, I could end up having to pay my agency their commission - if they find out about the sale. So, it sounds like I should not get involved. I can't see my agency agreeing to reduce their commission from 10,000 to 3,000 euros. As someone else said, it also seems my agency have done all the work with viewings and it seems unethical to sell with someone else.
However, I do think that the agency commission of 10,000 euros for selling property in France is ridiculous and no doubt leads to this sort of situation. I sold a much more expensive property in Scotland a couple of years ago, including lawyers fees, agent fees, advertising, professional photography with glossy brochures, diagnostic reports, property taxes etc. - all for well under £3,000. When I ask the French agents how they justify their fees, they just shrug. No wonder people try to cheat.
Sorry, another thought.
Any agreement you may have signed with an immobilier will be subject to French law. Any translation is only for your guidance. The translation I have seen is not a very good one and even muddles "principal" and "vendor".
In the event of a dispute it the exact wording of the French agreement that will be the one which carries any weight - not the translation which may not be clear./
One is assuming here that the original vendor has not signed an exclusive agreement with the immobilier? However one is also assuming that the vendor has signed something with the immobilier?
One agreement I have seen (in translation) states:-
"Should the principal purchase a property from a vendor without the assistance of the agency or substitute the latter will be legally entitled a flat commission fee payable by the principal and amounting to the agency's fees including VAT, as stated in the present contract."
However the sale here could be deemed to be "with the assistance of the agency".
While buying and selling property is a nightmare in France, there is also the thought that it is hardly ethical to dump the agent that introduced the buyer surely? Or am I being too prissy?
Finally, the price the vendor has asked is usually increased by the commission to the agent so, if the second agent is offering to sell the property at a reduced commission, one assumes that the vendor is still getting their "asking price" and it is the buyer that is saving money by paying a lower commission?
I, personally, would not go there as the potential ramifications could be expensive to sort out.
Everybody, if a mandate was signed with the first agency but if not then right, I was under the impression this was not the case here. If wrong, then sure the first can claim their commission IF they find out about the sale before their mandate is cancelled. Then there is the trick of lying low for a couple of weeks after cancelling then selling through another, the bane of my OH's life and loss of her commission. A viewing form is not a mandate though, it simply ensures the agent the client has visited the property so that the agent is covered if the people then go to another agent and buy with them. If a place has a mandate with more than one agenct then it is a free for all and whoever sells gets the commission.
The friendly arrangements are usually done as a private sale, whereby the agent takes a reduced cut for the introduction. So it is often without a mandate as well.
I hear about all of this several days a week but have never sold a house myself, bar two of my own in the UK, yet have been gradually taught all the ins and outs of selling.
Gillain, most agents will get viewers to sign a "visit/viewing form" before/during or after the viewing. If the couple have signed the first agent's form then that agency can claim theit fee regardless of who the couple eventually buy through, and as others ahave already said - you'll end up with two fees to pay :-O
PS don't forget leboncoin, it's worked for me both buying and selling a number of times, plus half of all sales are private in France so don't miss out on half the potential market ;-)
My OH is a part time agent. Normally the vendor signs a mandat but not the viewers/buyers. Buyers occasionally play a bit of a 'dirty' game by viewing with one agent then bidding through another because there is no fixed arrangement. I think they tell the second agency and work a reduced commission deal. However, selling to or for friends, which she has done a couple of times, is normally done for an agreed sum well under the normal commission. So it sounds OK and if it saves money and they know each other may well make it all that bit quicker and more amicable. Most agents are sort of freelance, so as long as the agency gets their loot they really don't mind. Go for it.
Sorry Sheila is right. I missed the bit about the other agent showing them round, is understood it was the new one that had shown them round.
Oops
gill, totally agree with sheila,do not risk it, you could end up paying two immobilier for the same sale, ask the people who are interested to go back to the original agent , then ask the agent for a honesty discount.
Gill, as far as I know, you would leave yourself open to a bit of a dispute there. The original agent who showed this couple around is perfectly entitled to claim the fee if they buy. If this couple buys through their friend from Montpellier, it could potentially open a can of worms. In my humble opinion, t's also bad business practice, as he's effectively trying to "steal" the commission/fees from the agent who showed it originally. Just be careful.