Presume you’re thinking of the teleworking tax liability? Hmm, not completely sure, perhaps I can offer an (alternative) opinion from the defense POV? The France tax liability turns on the centre of economic and social interests - the economic interests remain in the UK, the social interests (family) are in France but temporarily, as the movers would argue. No CDS. Fixed time limited accommodation, not owned. Maison principal in UK. (not rented?)
I’d have to defend kids being in school is not an indicator of permanence, merely a result of temporary stay. My biggest problem for the defence might be that sticking your kids in school is a sign of permanence.
And the france tax code does state residence is availability of accommodation, exclusive to oneself - a bit silent on permanence as far as I recall.
I think if pursuing the defence further I’d have to go and research some case law here (I’m not). If none, then likely the Impot aren’t going to be bothered, even assuming they are alerted. If the impot do take up the case, and there is no case law, then the case law will be formed.
The breadwinner could even just stick to UK/France ‘frontaliering’ and that would be more case law to sort out.
Social sec - entry to healthcare - I have no idea how. But maybe the people would do private healthcare. I wonder how @vero ‘s friend with he kids managed that - could be an insight.
I also have a lot of sympathy for the moral cause raised by @JaneJones - one is using France resources, why not contribute? Though there again is the difficulty of persuading employers, etc to go with the added bureaucracy.
There is I presume no ‘temporary’ tax resident status, so permanence would all turn on the ‘centre of economic / social’ interests.
Thank you all for your responses! Lots of things to consider.
Our current reasoning about not wanting to be “removing” ourselves from the UK for what is ultimately only a short term stay (6 months max). We’re perfecly happy to pay impots and taxes in France, but we don’t want to uproot our lives from the UK, for several reasons. I’m not British and I don’t want to take the risk to lose my leave to remain (i know the rules definitely allow this but I don’t take anything for granted in this country…). We would need to re-register our kids to their school here in England while we’d be in France, and for that we need to keep our home address. We would go back and forth to the UK for school holidays over those 6 months, so we do not plan on relying on healthcare in France (unless there is an emergency of course and for that I wonder if a year long travel insurance can suffice - another topic we need to research).
I can’t help but see it as an extended holiday that includes work and school, and bringing our cat
For the education side, it sounds fairly easy to register the kids at most schools, I’ve looked at the private options too, which I think offer even more flexibility. I’m not planning on homeschooling as the point is that we’d love for the kids to be immersed, make friends and come home bilingual (wishful thinking but they are sponges at those ages!)
It’s a lot to consider but I’m sure we can make it work. Having discussions like this is really helpful in categorising the things that need researching, so thanks everyone
I appreciate your detailed answer. Part of my job is actually in tax compliance in Europe, so I have some insights, which is handy. I have worked with a couple of Brits who lived in France and commuted to London for work, so I do know it’s far from impossible. It’s such a grey area, and the frontaliering aspect is the initial angle to our approach. We would still get advice from accountants in both countries though, again, we’d be more than happy to pay all the necessary impots in France, evading taxes is really not the motivator here.
Both our jobs have entities in France, but we’re not really willing to change to French payroll either for many practical reasons (both for us and for our jobs). We probably wouldn’t even bother with a French bank account as we have euro accounts in Belgium (although maybe this might make things harder on the rental market - again something I need to research further).
I feel like we could really make this work with as little admin as possible, but maybe I’m completely deluded
Just as well, we take a very dim view of homeschooling.
Actually you seem very happy to come and avail yourself of what France has to offer while contributing nothing. Your non-francophone children will possibly disrupt the education other children are getting just because of a whim of yours. And seeing how our resources are stretched, there won’t be any provision mid-year for allophone pupils (especially if they are privileged anglophone allophones rather than refugees).
If you are planning to return to your home in UK for the school holidays… surely you will not be counted as living in France for the 6 months… only the school term-time??? Might this make things easier… I’ve no idea… it’s just a thought
Mind you… we had a young French boy (11/12 yrs) spend a whole summer with us kids. He came with a label pinned to his coat (like a parcel or a WW2 Evacuee) and he spoke not a word of English. We spoke no French.
By the end of those summer hols he was chattering away in crazy, colloquial English plus some suspect-American phrases/words from the cartoons (RoadRunner, Tom & Jerry etc)
I don’t want to sound negative but my experience of advising on the tax/social security aspects of cross channel moves is that the tax systems can cope with people going on short business trips (usually tax treaty exempt in the host country) and people living in 1 country but commuting to work in another (ie frontalier)..However being physically based in one country whilst doing work remotely for another is.something of a nightmare to make (legally) workable, in terms of (for example) dual payrolling etc.
My own employer, one of the Big Four global accountancy networks ultimately banned remote working by choice in 1 country for the benefit of another country, anywhere in the world. They feared they would all too easily risk becoming liable for creating a tax presence in the host country, with associated payrolling, corporate tax reporting and corporate tax liability exposure.
“Contributing nothing” is a bit of a stretch… Again I’m absolutely not saying we will not be paying our due while in the country. And we certainly would not be “taking” much either, especially if we go the private school route. My kids understand French very well, but they need a push to start speaking it and that’s something I’m just not able to do on my own as an isolated speaker. (Yes I’ve looked at learning options in our area, they simply don’t exist). Calling is a whim is also a bit hurtful, I feel like it’s a worthy investment in their future, as well as an amazing project as a family.
Now, is it fair that we could do this while not every other kid on the planet has the same chance? No it’s not fair, and I am with you on that. The ethics of chosing to do it anyway is more something for a philosophy forum I think Sorry i’m not trying to be antagonistic, these are all consideration that we take seriously but privately.
With that mindset, it can’t be fully immersive anyway, because their dad doesn’t speak French so home life is always going to be mostly in English anyway… But the push of being surrounded by kids who only speak French would certainly help them lean into their existing knowledge (well at least that’s my hope!)
Belgium is not off the cards for sure, but the consideration are very similar.
This is very insightful thank you! I will look at the possibility of getting on the French entities of our companies but it’s possible that our employers would see this move of payroll as just too much faff (especially if it’s not a forever move).
All options are on the table for now, and more research is definitely needed.
Although initially allowed to work from home (incl second home in France) from time to time as was supposed to be available 24/7 this was then prohibited as I was absolutely not allowed to take my laptop and connect it outside the UK - even with a secure connection. Not all employers are keen on their staff being scattered across the globe.
Might it just be simpler to spend all the school holidays in France? Often lots of activities around for kids like day camps/holiday schools and so on. And they would keep their UK school routine and friends, just expand to gain some new ones.
From quite a young age I was packed off to camps in France and Switzerland most years. (Just such a shame i never kept up with the languages after..)
Employers won’t potentially be too thrilled at the level of admin they’d have to do let alone the social charges and taxes they’d actually quite possibly end up having to pay. Particularly if it’s not an ongoing change they’d be setting up and only for a short period.
Wondering as it’s only 6 months being contemplated and possibly split have you thought of having the children hosted by a French family? Would seem a lot less hassle and they might then be more immersed too. I’d look at it say for closer to 1 academic year than 6 months though for education purposes as less disruption to their education at each end.
Our private schools are sous contrat avec l’état so it has nothing to do with private schools elsewhere, teachers are trained and paid by the state with a diocesan top-up for the religious element.
You may find it easier to put your children into school in Belgium, you can get an attestation d’hébergement from family or friends, it’ll be easier than here where unless someone does that for you, (as I did for my cousin) you won’t get your children into the village school (they are obliged to take you but onlyif you are resident, private schools aren’t obliged to take you at all and parents keep a very beady eye on class size).
I didn’t say anything about it not being fair, it’s just that in the education system we aren’t yokels dazzled by the glitzy international opportunity you are offering us, but professional technocratic civil servants who see your laudable effort to encourage bilingualism in your children by putting them in one of our schools for a few weeks as more work (for little return, for you or for us) and a frivolous choice which is disruptive for us.
I don’t know where you live in the UK but there are francophone feeder schools for the lycée Charles de Gaulle in London and the Alliance française does children’s ‘learn while playing in French’ sessions.
If you really want results you should bite the bullet and put your children in a francophone school for at least a year, 2 would be better and then you’ll need to ensure that you provide sufficient input thereafter so that their language level doesn’t stagnate at that of a small child plus purely transactional* language later on (*by transactional I mean ‘passe-moi le beurre stp maman’ etc).
Agree with that too. We spoke German at home (along with other English and French) until my grandmother died when I was around 7 or 8. I’m now back at the Reich mir bitte die Butter level. My sisters who are older fared a bit better.
