Solar panels, another "to buy or not to buy" discussion

Hi Julian,

Actually, I have already explained all of this in this post 2 years ago:

http://www.myelifenow.com/2012/10/lifepo4-charging-method-dont-ruin-your.html

Please take some time to watch all the videos to understand the simple concept behind this Bottom Balancing and Under Charging

My batteries should be fine for 7000 cycles and 20 years, I will have resold them way before anyways ;-)

Thanks Leslie for your support and kind words :-)

New from last night, you can follow my Usage - Generation = Net Usage thanks to Wattson Anywhere (2nde version using EnergyHive): http://wattson.energyhive.com/dashboard/diyesskit

I like the idea of solar power, but if it is the solution to energy needs that we are led to believe it is, why doesn't EDF or the government pay US for the priviledge of using our roofs to mount panels?

I always thought it odd that we householders would have to take out finance agreements to do something which would save EDF building & running more power stations, as once the hardware was in place there are no fuel costs.

Prices seem very high, I suppose because of so many taking a percentage along the way!

Just to throw something different into the mix - have you discussed 'autoconsommation' as an alternative to the 'EDF" type schemes? Use the electricity you generate yourself to reduce your existing bills. It is said to be the most cost effective way of using solar generated power as you avoid the taxes, admin charges on every unit of electricity generated. There are no contracts, loans, additional 'kit' to make the figures work and no separate cables, meters and you don't have to get EDF involved at all. The kit prices are probably as low as they are going to get and that's all you pay for - no gimmicks. all the environmental mags are talking about 'autoconsommation' being the savior of the PV industry in France? Costs should be about 9-10K for a fully installed 3KW system depending on how and where you mount them. once bought you can take them with you if you move or use them as a selling point to your property with reduced bills - what happens to a contract with EDF if you move on? - do you take it with you or have to sell it to the new occupants? There are some disadvantages - you will loose some electricity to the grid if you don't use the electricity when you are producing it - day time so you need to change some habits but there are ways to reduce the losses and if you are worried about the little bit of gain EDf may get from you then this system is not for you. there is an 'autoconsommation' system in the Charente region where the owner has been able to reduce his overnight electricity consumption by 60% and daytime by 80% with a 14 panel 3.5KW system - what are your thoughts on this?

Hi Christophe,

Good to here from you, and trust that things are okay.

I think that vested commercial folk will allways try the, "don't do this" or "don't do that", and "this is regulated", and "we are applying for a Patent" etc etc.

The more money they sink in capital into their so called business venture the more over protective and arrogant they become, I have seen it so many times in the Renewable Energy area.

Stick with it Christophe, and more power to your elbow.

Best, Leslie.

"and I recall a member from France working on battery storage LifePo for the past 3 years. But again the charging regime is very complicated.http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20118.0.html his site, http://www.diyesskit.com/ "

Actually, charging LiFePO4 cells is very simple, and my ESS has been running for a year and a half now, and everything is fine with my battery pack; Once bottom balanced once at the very beginning, the cells are wired in series and the charge is stopped at 3.5V per cell x number of cells (3.5V x 8 = 28V) and the discharge is stopped at 3V per cell x number of cells (3V x 8 = 24V), that's it ! No BMS, no over complicated stuff, it is ultra simple, and it works;

I am now testing LEAF battery (made by AESC) and they work exactly the same way, at different voltages limits though

Christophe

Hi Julian.

SMA have come out with a LifePo battery system but the costs are not sufficiently cost effective to make folk reach for the cheque book.

The Holy Grail in Battery storage is to find that cost effective storage system at around 20 to 60kwh. For most folk in the European sustainability field the TRUE cost effectiveness of LifePo has yet to be proved, mostly because of the charging issues.

Every PV on roof etc owner is looking for the battery system that is cost effective against good old fashioned Lead Acid where we knows the faults and gains. But get the LifePo working and the costs down then you will be the man.

On many occasion we see a manufacturers touting their stuff only to find that the costings do not add up, and their technologies on the battery sides are woefully inadequate.

On the European sustainability forum the LifePo has been well discussed, as http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18932.0.html and I recall a member from France working on battery storage LifePo for the past 3 years. But again the charging regime is very complicated. http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20118.0.html his site, http://www.diyesskit.com/ and of course check out for real tech independent data from http://www.fieldlines.com/

Latest stuff on LifePo, hmm, we have some serious problems with quality control on LifePo.s coming from good old chinky land, some of these batteries have got into the mainstream systems and, oh dear ?.

We here are not a business selling or trading in any Eco products, and therefore have no vested interests in any particular products, but we do encourage a philosophy of saving this sorry Planet, but boy, oh boy do, we see some slick snake oil salesmen.

I just read a magazine article about this in the doctor’s waiting room. Seems it takes about 25 years, in a favored location, to recover the investment - after that (theoretically) all your electricity is free.
No serious investor would even consider that. Improved insulation or draught-proofing would cost a lot less and bring a quicker return. Farmers with large outbuildings seem to go for solar, but I suspect that is a good way of avoiding paying tax on excessive profits.
Technology is moving so quickly, I think it is quite likely that double the output for half the cost will be possible in the fairly near future. It might even pay to scrap a 2014 system and replace it with a 2024 system even if the cost hadn’t been fully recovered.
Right now, the “Catch 22” is that if nobody invests in solar, the research won’t get done and the price/efficiency ratio won’t improve.
If I were young and just starting out, I would build the most thermally efficient new home I could afford. That seems to be the best insurance against rising fuel prices.

This is probably a very silly question, and I am a total technophobe, but why cannot the panels be the same colour as the roof tiles?

Thanks for info. Julian. What are they benefits of LiFePO / Lipo? I haven't heard the term in the model world where each cell is about 3.7 v storage(80% charge) - 4.2 v fully charged.

Leslie. Do you mean LiPo batteries (Lithium Polymer)? I use Lipo on my model electric 'planes & think they are what you are talking about. Lipo's are indeed different to "normal" batteries & have, amongst other things, a maximum charge rate & level plus a level below which they must not be discharged. They have been know to catch fire in their early days but are apparently more stable now!

Hi Greg,

Nothing to add really that has not been mentioned, see my last reply in the PV panel rip off.

Prices, see for French stuff http://www.emat.fr/opportunites

27k for 5.8kW you must be MAD.

I have posted that link on the Solarworld PV panels on other sustainability forums that have MCS Installers and genuine folk on, and I await the replies.

So so difficult at the present times trying to be green and cost-effective with the PV Ripp off boys,

But some times I feel like handing out pamphlets where to buy your PV direct to customers, at these crazy PV retail stands at public shows. My ECO WARRIOR bit to try and save this sorry Planet.

LIFE=Po, interesting stuff and several friends have it under test, but one thing is known that the re-charging cycle is very very critical, and at present their is no Off the Shelf solution. I am watching a ferry ship in Scotland that has huge life-po battery packs, and the engineers report that again the charging is complicated.

Thanks Julian, indeed. I should note we're not feeling the pinch of our current energy bills, power in France is indeed cheap! This was more a "do the right thing" and be "green" as long as we don't lose money. But it's become clear we surely would lose money buying panels and installation on finance like this. Which is pretty much what the EDF guy already said. In our case it was over 10 years and they were transparent about the overall total pay-back, which would be somewhere around €42k, but not including insurance, which would take it nearer to €50k. And indeed, at the tariffs available, and the *real* likely output of the panels, you'd be lucky to get it all back, never mind actually make any money.

Anyway, thanks for the extra info, appreciate it. Always interesting to find out more about these things.

I think our friend would agree with all of that. He is fortunate in having a brother-in-law who installs industrial grids in large plants like aircraft manufacturers and has most recently had to work with solar and other alternative power sources. He also got the panels, mounts, inverters, storage batteries and so on at trade cost price. He absolutely did pay attention to detail and such ones as cabling, routing the cables efficiently in order to reduce energy loss and so on. So whilst it is a DIY job and our friend knows what he is doing himself, his bro-in-law made sure it was right. However, he is replacing panels every five years to stay apace with the changing technology rather than the longevity of panels. The house is single storey, the ridge has a rail built into it for putting up ridge ladders for maintenance and replacement that will simply protect the mortar from damage with annual or even more often 'visits'. The secret of it working is having two circuits in the house, but their fortune is that when they bought the place two years ago it needed rewiring and they were looking to have an alternative, independent power system. In essence they have two sockets where people would have one, two switches for lights and so on. Some things require going round the house to change socket, for instance the refrigerator and dishwasher plugs need to be done. They simply used two colours, one is white and the other grey so no confusion.

We have considered it but the proposition is very different and would be far more expensive, even with their help. What I was describing is how it is possible with know how, help and access to materials at lower prices. The bro-in-law is in his early-30s and trained with the technology almost an integral part of the job and knows the developments in the industry as an engineer. The five year replacements are in line with what is happening at installations on new industrial buildings particularly.

However, there are echoes of what my father used to say. He was a builder, partner in a small house building firm that put up mainly public housing until the early 1990s. They did very high standard work but his partner and he did not alongside other firms who did the same work whereby the quality was disgraceful. Therefore, my father use to say regularly, 'never trust a builder'. Our friend and his bro-in-law in this case are both saying do not trust the companies installing at present. Their installers are rarely specifically trained for the work and are doing all of the work instead of having a roofer and regular electrician working with them which although these two men have done everything, they are saying is far too risky.

Almost perfect solution Brian. Still the recycling issue but far better than the EDF buy back option. One thing that has come up on a regular basis is the need to access panels to clean. Efficiency deteriorates very quickly when the panels have a layer of grime and rooftops are not the most accessible of places. The whole thing is a minefield of untested technology (hence the replacement every five years) and unscrupulous companies cashing in on the renewable bandwagon.

As to the phone calls, I always screen and any sales call I speak in English and ask to be removed from their list. Am now down to a couple of calls a week rather than the ten a day. Best one we had this week was for serpent removal, as approved by our Mayor. I did see a six inch long snake in the courtyard some time back so maybe they have a reason to visit!

The solar panel market is unfortunately becoming a vast great scam. Our neighbour gets nothing out of it like the promised value three years ago. He complains endlessly that he was conned into installing. the company who did it do not want to know and EDF does not give a damn. The standard five day a week phone calls have given us the incentive to take the rise out of them given that we have accumulated a catalogue of questions that these sales people cannot deal with. By dragging them down to the level of ignorance they can only display because their job is to sell (all sympathy to people earning a crust for all of that) we have been able to eliminate some companies when they have called back with technical advisers to speak to us. One company slid down from €26k to €12k for the entire installation based on our materials and installation cost questions and were prepared to send us a contract the same day.

We have a friend who knows what he is doing. He bought and installed himself, he does not sell on his surplus energy but stores what he needs. His entire installation plus power storage cost him under €8k for 24 panels and all the labour was his brother-in-law and him. He reckons to use his backup power supply, the regular EDF that is, roughly the equivalent of four months a year but it is kept running all year round anyway, their freezer and something like the washing machine so that they have a reading and bill but no questions since many of the second homes in their neck of the woods have far lower consumption. That pays off. The panels are going to be replaced every five years as technology advances, the old panels taken back by the manufacturer. It means them driving to Germany a couple of times so that they can change half of the installation each time, but then the man is an international sport referee who can usually get a couple of competition stints reasonably close by.

The couple had a good look at friends with solar deals before they went for it. They decided that solar was far better than a small wind turbine or the difficulties of trying to bore in the base rock to install thermal, so went for it. However, unattached to any deal or solar company was the only way they could envision it and went for that and it is paying off handsomely.

Thank you! I've done some more research this morning and it is very interesting. Found this French forum thread, one "happy" customer who admits though they are not achieving their estimated production (and our salesmen insisted we would do 25% *better* than their estimate):

http://www.60millions-mag.com/forum/gaz-et-electricite/groupe-solution-energie-ou-avenir-solution-energie-t4946-10.html?sid=56b6ae76844dfa52f1c8b7b14f916532

Then I found this from the same thread, which is really great:

http://www.bdpv.fr/carte_installation.php

You can basically work out how much energy your panels are *likely* to produce by statistics and reports from existing installations. And indeed, it's likely our panels would output somewhere around 8,000kWh/a, not the 9,000kWh/a "promised" and the 11,000+ strongly implied!

Plus there's taxes they didn't mention.

I don't care about not making money, if I'm doing the right thing, but I don't want to actively *lose* money to feather a finance company's nest!

We spoke to a man from EDF direct about 2 years ago (I think?) who was very nice and very honest. He came to sell us panels, but after his study of our situation he told us in the current market, don't bother! Should've stuck to that. Sure, if you can buy the panels outright without finance it might make some sense, but all the points you've made about the "green-ness" of PV are another factor on top.

Meh. Shame. Wind turbine anyone? (I actually would have a wind turbine, but I think it's far harder to get permission for these things.)

http://www.dw.de/solarworld-with-no-place-in-the-sun/a-17005858

I have had my say on this subject so many times. Would suggest that you look at the taxes on your EDF bill and decide who is paying for the 'sustainable' power that cannot be stored. By all means install for your own personal use but be aware that electricity bills will rise for all as the power companies are paying twice for solar energy. Once to the generator (at levels higher than economically viable) and then to the big companies employed to turn on plant at certain times to absorb the excess - cheaper than powering down the grid.

And 'green'! Do not look at site of manufacture, look at the source of individual components. They do more air miles than Richard Branson.

And there is a huge global issue regarding the recycling of solar panels. Yes they can get the aluminium and glass but on the whole the core elements end up in landfill. So a scar on the world from mining the elements needed and a monumental toxic disaster as panels are dumped because they do not perform as promised. Just do a search on Solyndra, a typical example of the whole industry. In the UK thousands of their panels were dumped prior to installation.

Heigh Ho, all good for future generations, we have to go 'green'. As with so many well intentioned initiatives this one has been proven a dud. The buy back scheme is being phased out, just do the maths. Even Hollande cannot justify blue sky accounting on this scale. Makes me wonder how a twenty year contact can be honoured.

Am off now to invest in a wind farm, otherwise known as paying the CSPE portion of my electricity bill!