Spoken French

I read an interesting article a while ago in New Scientist. It was by a chap called Richard Aslin, a professor of brain sciences, and he's been studying what he calls speech disfluencies ie the ums and ers that come into normal speech. Apparently they are very useful things not just useless noises as, in particular for young children learning to speak, they tend to come before a difficult or unusual word and therefore act as pointers for a word that will need to have particular attention paid to it.

They did experiments with toddlers, putting two pictures in front of them, one with a familiar object eg. a ball and the other unfamiliar eg a wrench. They used eye tracking to determine where the child was looking and then introduced a sentence with a disfluency ie Look at the er er er.... They found that the toddlers would always look towards the unfamiliar object.

The article was really about how kids learn to speak, but perhaps it applies to adults learning a foreign language as well? The point is that the disfluency will help to point towards the important word in the sentence, particularly helpful he says when people talk fast and the listener does not know many words!

Perhaps we should look at people who talk fast and litter their speech with ers as helpful monitors, picking out new and exciting words for us to learn? ?

yes verb conjugation is a nightmare for the french too - my OH always asks me when she's writing as she's never sure and some of the written french I correct at Uni is terrible! as for the subjunctive - you can't survive without it, written or spoken: il faut que tu saches, il faut que j'y aie, pour qu'il puisse... all really standard everyday spoken use. é /e/and è /ɛ/ are pronounced slightly differently but only slightly ;-)

Actually spoken french allows you far more leeway as for example, the 'a' sounding ending. You could be thinking ez, ait, ais, aient, e acute, singular or plural etc but the listener will assume you got it right!

Also only formulate sentences in your head in French, don't try and think in English and translate as you speak, that way there is less chance of hitting a brick wall.

And there is no need to get stuck on words. eg if you cant think of the word for 'bed' just say 'the thing you sleep in'. Someone will then say 'lit' and the conversation rolls on which is what its all about after all.

The french are lenient. I once saw a frenchman start to grin as he heard me clearly gettin myself into a subjunctive situation and he roared with laughter when I finally let it fly. 'we dont bothe'r he said,' not in spoken french'

Well I think it's quite normal for radio presenters to speak clearly and precisely in whatever language they are speaking in, their guests too, unless excited.

I cannot always follow Glaswegians or Geordies when they slip into normal speech mode and forget I'm a soft southerner. I can follow my French neighbours perfectly well when they speak to me, but when they speak amongst themselves they soon drop into local patois as well as pronounciation and it becomes harder.

The fact is that learning a foreign language as an adult will always be a struggle. I learnt French as a schoolboy and at university, I doubt if I could seriously learn a new language now.

n

I agree entirely about the speed of the spoken French. I haven't been taught French in any formal manner since I was at school 50 years ago; however I was astonished how much of the language "came back to me" from 4 years of "O" level (failed) french! Now - after 5 years here with only French neighbours I can read most things and write well in French and my neighbours speak clearly and precisely to me as they know that apart from being English I'm partially deaf ! So I get by pretty well as I always speak in French; however as soon as I meet a stranger or use the telephone I'm stuffed as invariably the speed is too much for me. So I just nod and laugh/shake head at what I think are the appropriate moments. When they look at me askance I know I've just nodded when I should have shaken! However apart from wearing a big badge on my chest saying "Parlez Doucement svp" I don't know what the answer is; apart from enrolling in some pretty intensive classes and wasting valuable time, when I could be on the golf course with my french pals.

Sorry Gretchen, I should have said - Swiss ;-)

yes it's true for all languages but the anglophone phobia of foreign languages can to a certain degree be put down to the dominance of English and the lack of language training throughout ALL education regardless of it's end goal.

English is a pretty horrible language to learn too - all those phrasal verbs and tenses (put in, put up, put down, put out, put right... eh monsieur, qu'est ce que ça veut dire alors "put left" - eh ça n'existe pas...!)that make no sense to the French (present perfect and present perfect continuous - and explain the difference - that's always a nasty lesson!)

yes and the more you know the more it slows you down as you're worried about mistakes/you know when you do make mistakes!

huitante or occasionally octante ;-)

I find that when French friends use their "er, er, er" in conversation, it gives my brain time to catch up on what they've said before.

The above is true in any language. The only peculiarly tough French comes into play with their numbers, especially when spoken in quick succession over the telephone when all you have is a pencil with a broken point: "quatre vingt dix neuf soixante douze vingt six soixante dix sept...." Wish we could convert to the Swiss numerical system sometimes.

Very interesting one Brian, especially for someone who was typically Anglophone and at 30 still only spoke English and not a word of any other language. I fell in love with Italy then went through the evening class-uni system reading Italian and French and ended up doing a PGCE MFL and maîtrise : français langue étrangère (here in France) and now teach French to foreign students here (PGCE in Uk and taught French and some Italian in the UK after my PGCE but came straight back to France after a year’s teaching!) Taught English in France in schools, CCIs, IUTs, companies etc. so have seen the different approaches to language learning.

The biggest difference and reason I see for the current situation is that anglophones on the whole have no real motivation for learning a foreign language – I even had parents telling me to “go easy on little Jimmy because no one needs to learn French anyway…”. I speak from experience because I didn’t learn a thing at school, had no exam to pass and couldn’t see the point. Now French kids might have pretty poor (pedagogically speaking) language lessons but everyone accepts that they need to learn a foreign language, nearly always English and that they’ll have to pass exams in it right through their schooling regardless of what they study, yes I’ve even taught English in the école nationale de boulangérie to future bakers and to unemployed people as a condition of them keeping their benefits. So the “need” and “motivation” simply aren’t there early on for Anglophones.

Now being more specific regarding those that come to live in France. I’ve come across various types but the over whelming group are the “I’ll pick it up once I’m there” group. Now if it takes 7 years study to get to A level French reasonable get by type level and 11 years of study to get to degree level (still not really what I’d call fully fluent) then how on earth is somebody going to pick it up whilst living in France, watching UK TV and listening to UK radio and talking to other Anglophones – at best there will be a short conversation in the boulangerie each morning or the local bar but it’ll be the same thing everyday and never out of the comfort zone. (and please please please I’m NOT having a go at anybody, not trying to be all high and mighty or intellectual, I’m just answering Brian’s question from a linguist’s point of view!)

It is also extremely uncomfortable to pass from a situation where you can talk about anything and anything to one where you are effectively reduced to the communication capacities of a 2 to 3 year old and that’s why so many people simply throw in the towel – it’s bloody hard work mentally and it takes years!

And to answer Phil’s point – yes with foreign languages by the very nature in which they’re learnt the easiest is reading then listening (both passive activities) followed by writing (active activity but you have the time to think, look things up, change things) followed by speaking (100% active with no time to think/look things up etc!)

Native speakers often make the assumption that if you can’t speak that well then you can’t read or write the language (that would be the case for a native language) and are often surprised to see that many foreigners write far better French than the French.

One last thing for all those who are struggling – expose yourselves to every possible encounter with the language: watch French TV even if you don’t understand too much, listen to the radio (although harder than TV as there aren’t any pictures to give you clues), don’t shy away from grammar – it gives you the building blocks and explanations for you to understand and go forward.

Courage, bonne chance et n’oubliez pas “on peut si on veut”

And sorry for the waffle but I’m on home territory here!

Strangely enough, it is not my point but that of a very carefully spoken retired professor. He also gave the debate and heated discussion topic a big red card saying that most of them use words that ordinary people cannot cope with and then garble everything over each other and politicians are amongst the debaters he finds most culpable, thus never really understood by the public.

Totally agree. I've been in France for 1.5 years and have been taking classes with 4 different associations here in Bordeaux. When French people speak slowly, very slowly, I can follow the conversation, albeit, not all the words (I still have a lot to learn!). But when they speak amongst themselves, it is truly hard to decipher the liasons and missing letters! I can usually get a word or two but that's about all. I can read it well, write it "o-k" and speak "o-k" (with my American accent, not too many understand immediately), but comprehension is still beyond my grasp. And I will say it is a frustrating thing, but it hasn't made me quit yet. I believe there is a light at the end of this tunnel!

Brian,

I think you make a good point here. Initially the learning curve is very steep especially with conversational French, which may be why many never make the effort as it seems too much of a challenge. I've been trying to learn French for a year or so now and have a reasonable vocabulary, which means that I can roughly follow most written French but still struggle in conversation. I know that often people learning languages tend to develop in the order of reading > listening > speaking, but I do agree with your main point - the sheer speed of spoken French can be a problem to the learner.