Rather OTT Peter the church maybe perfectly legitimate and honest
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I respect your opinion, @anon22869222, but I donât share it. Many of these churches are entirely autonomous one-man-enterprises, unregulated, answerable to no religious authority or discipline, and with self-appointed âpropheticâ clergy : some pander to superstitious beliefs in witchcraft, demonic possession (often of defenceless children and adolescent girls), and practice ritual exorcisms.
I have long been involved in interfaith activities, and have seen how some of these âflash-mob churchesâ work.
The church in question may be innocent, but the comportment of the pastor at a time of Christian reverence raises questions that call for examination IMO.
The pastor belonged to a church that has nearly 30 million members worldwide.
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Is that right, Tim? Who did the tally?
Well Peter, it all depends where you stand. From my point of view, all religion is mistaken and I find it hard to distinguish between them. But to suggest that this pastor is somehow ripping off his congregation by taking his family for a modest off-season holiday is the kind of intolerance that often seems to exist among people of slightly differing beliefs.
But enough of that. My concern is that people should not drown through ignorance or incompetence and it is important that we find out exactly what happened here so that we can make water activities safer for everyone.
So letâs get this thread back on track and if you want to debate the merits of the different shades of religious faith, I shall be happy to do that as a different topic.
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Does it matter Peter, the point is they are a big church with a membership nearly double that of the Mormons.
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Perhaps it was the only time that the pastor could have time off with his family,perhaps his church doesnât make a big thing of Christmas some religions focus more on epiphany or donât celebrate Christmas at all. Indeed in the Christian church Easter is more significant and holidaying then may possibly be more frowned upon
Mary, That isnât important. Even if he was a thoroughly bad character, he didnât deserve to drown with two of his children.
The BBC says they expect a further report tomorrow. Letâs wait and see wehere that takes us.
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Completely agree
As an atheist I am inclined to agree with Mike on this point, though I would disagree that it is difficult to distinguish religions - that said I am not enough of a scholar of religion to give chapter and verse but it is clear there are many aspects that allow one to place an individual faith amongst the panoply of religions on offer.
Interestingly there is evidence that atheists and agnostics are actually more knowledgable about religion (and generally more tolerant of othersâ religious beliefs) than those of faith.
I scored 13/15 in the quiz, well up there with the atheists.
Issues around the existence or non-existence of God donât concern me in the slightest, but I donât discount or fail to acknowledge and respect the experience of people of religion, or the value of their beliefs or practices.
Religion is a hugely important part of the history of all humankind, and has enriched it, as well as staining it.
I donât think the Diya [edited] family deserved the tragedy that befell them. But the incident did and will continue to cast a spotlight on organised religion and its impact on the behaviour of individuals and groups, for better or worse.
That interests me a lot.
These family name was Diya
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Me neither @Peter_Goble but what did it for me was an attendance at a service at my local Methodist church in my late teens.
The Church wardens were warmly welcoming the congregation as they arrived, handing them their hymn book and inviting them to take their place in the congregation. A couple of colour had arrived at the church for their first visit - now this was unusual in this part of Manchester in late 1960âs (no so now of course) and the Husband and Wife wardens welcomed them as others and pointed in the direction of the seating arrangements suggesting they sit where they liked.
They were clearly nervous and chose to sit on the end of the back row.
Horror of horrors! When the doors were closed ready for the service to begin and the wardens went to take their seats (the ones they always occupied) - they realised that the couple of colour had taken them!!!
Well, to say that the Christian thing to have done would have been to occupy different seat was beyond this pair. They caused a scene requiring the couple of colour to move somewhere else demanding they be able to occupy the seats they always occupy.
Well, that did it for me. Christian values, my arse. If that is how Christians behave then I wanted no further part of it.
That memory of over 50 years ago still leaves a nasty taste in my mouth today.
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MODERATOR, please help!
This thread is going completely off track.
Is it possible to start a new topic for those who want to discuss religion and transfer the relevant posts to that?
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I understand your exasperation, Mike, and I suggest the initiative lies with you to raise points that invite the sort of comment you prefer.
Itâs no use complaining if conversations take a different tack, thatâs how conversations go, theyâre living things like plants, and go where they will. This issue comes up over and over, and the answer is always the same. There are strictly regimented forums, but this isnât of that kind.
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I appreciate you started the thread @Mike_Kearney but you donât âownâ it.
Threads naturally drift and develop as they continue.
This is not AngloInfo which had a specific thread drift policy (and look what happened to them).
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I always think shouting for a moderator sounds a bit like shouting for mummy in the playground
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Iâd be very interested in a thread on learning to swim. Your comments to me @Mike_Kearney about this some time back were very thoughtful and helpful and did more to reassure me and inspire than any Iâve ever had. Even at my age, Iâve thought about swimming afresh, so donât be discouraged.
and I always thought you liked being thrown in at the deep end 
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Did you ever come across those rented swimming trunks, one-size-fits-all wrap-around flimsy-flappy garments secured with strings? Willy-warmers they were not, had to keep tucking him in between jumps.
Think they used to cost 3d a session. A mug of Bovril after a dip cost the same in the café with a birdseye view of the deep end 