I applaud your honesty Norah. I just wish that the leaders of the Remain Campaign would also be as honest as yourself and say straight out that they believe that the UK should give up sovereign independence and become part of 'Europa'.
Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps the majority of British people do feel that it is time to consign the country of the United Kingdom to the history books and be governed by a consortium of European politicians who neither share nor understand our values, morals, traditions, or culture. I fervently hope however, that this is not the case.
Sadly, I think that many voters the last time around did not have your clarity of vision, and neither did they share you desire. I believe that many people were deceived, in the same way that they are being deceived now with all this focus on industry and commerce.
I respect your desire for a fully integrated Europe, but surely you must agree that the ultimate degree of such full integration is for there to be only one country ---- that of 'Europa' for want of a better name.
To my mind, it is the aim of the EU to create that full integration (that single country), and I don't think that such a large conglomeration of peoples of such different ethnic, religious, and cultural backgrounds can be effectively, efficiently, and peacefully brought under one government at this time. Even the USA does not attempt this impossible tightrope walk. Each of the 50 States there is independent of the others in a huge number of ways. Each of the American States has it's own elected legislature, each has it's own set of laws, each state raises it's own taxes, and the reason is that the people of New England have little in common with those of Texas, who in turn are completely different people from Great Lakers or Floridians or those in the Pacific states. One mighty integrated European central government in Brussels will not work, and the proof of that lies on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.
We need to keep our independence. Yes we need to be friendly to Europe, but we need to stay as independent friends. We must not get sucked in to an attempt to fully integrate Europe simply because it will not work. Therefore we must leave the EU and put an end to this folly as soon as possible.
This is semantics Robert. You are right, I voted to join the EEC but on the understanding that this would lead to a fully integrated Europe; one that went even further than that which we have at present. I was not labouring under any illusions that this vote was for an economic union only. And as a Civil Servant at that time I did understand what I was voting for.
Dear Mr Watts,
As a Brexiter, please allow me to address the specific concerns you raise :-
1. In relation to healthcare, as from 1st January last (2016), anyone of any nationality who is lawfully resident in France may apply to join the French State Healthcare system via their local CPAM office. There is no longer any qualifying period of residency. All that is necessary is to prove actual lawful residency, so therefore it will not be necessary to purchase expensive private healthcare in the event of Brexit.
2. It is not a foregone conclusion that state pensions would be frozen for UK expats in Europe in the event of Brexit. British state pensioners resident in the USA currently continue to receive the increases in the same way as if they lived in the UK, and the USA is definitely not in the EU.
3. The European Court has ruled that Social Charges can only be levied on people who would ultimately receive some benefit as a result of paying them. These charges can therefore only be levied on people who are working. It is not the UK's membership of the EU that protects UK state pensioners from Social Charges, but rather the EU's own rules. Brexit will therefore have no effect on this.
I trust that my 'answer' will allay your most understandable fears.
Yes, indeed we did have a vote 40 years ago, and NO it was not a vote to join the EU. At that time the EU did not exist. What we were voting about back then was membership of the European Economic Community -- the EEC.
The EEC was about promoting free trade amongst independent countries, whereas the EU is fundamentally about uniting Europe in every way --- hence the phrase 'Ever Closer Union'. This is very much a horse of a completely different colour !!
My view is that joining the EEC to facilitate trade was a good thing for an independent sovereign country to do, but that to vote to remain in the EU is effectively a vote to say that we agree that we should ultimately give up our sovereign independence and effectively become a semi-autonomous region of a United Europe.
Democratic countries have Parliaments in order to govern. So why then is there a European Parliament at all, if it's ultimate purpose is not to govern ? The logical progression is clear. First one creates a European Parliament, and then in time, from that one creates a European Government, and European Commissioners morph into European Ministers, and then we soon have a European Prime Minister of a country to be called United Europe. Is this what we really want ----- to give up our nationhood ? My view is firmly that what we should be saying is NON, NON, et NON !!
I think we need to remember that we DID have a vote. It was a free vote and we the British people voted to join the EU, warts and all! I certainly did and I do not regret that vote. Of course things change and even I, an ardent supporter, now think the EU is much to big, so many countries its almost unmanageable. But then we do have British MEPs in Brussels voted for by us. The fact that somehow, by dint perhaps of a moment of mass insanity, a crowd of anti EU UKIP loonies got voted in is simply our bad luck. They do not agree with the EU, do not attend meetings (though charge us for their services). But that is our fault. Whatever way you look at it we have elected members representing (!!??) us in the EU.
Thanks Robert - very helpful…
I somehow doubt that there would be a "carte d'identité which needs renewing every quarter" my friend. My American wife has a Carte de Sejour which is valid for 5 years (she is on her third one now), and I myself had a 5 year Carte de Sejour back in the day. As for "interminable delays for health treatment", I still think that my Carte Vitale would still provide the same standard of service as it does now, although I do accept that the standard of service received is often related to one's ability to speak French.
Regarding "strict application of the law regarding driving licences and imported cars etc", my only comment is 'Good, and about time too'. This is France, and those of us who live here should indeed take the trouble to abide by French Law. I have a French driving licence, and a French car to go with it. When in Rome my friend, I believe that one should do all that is possible to live like a Roman. For those of us who attempt to understand the French system and culture, to speak French, and to generally live in accordance with French Laws, I see no substantial change to our situation here in a post Brexit world.
If Brexit wins and the UK still wants access to the single market, it will pay a heavy price. Part of the price will be the protection of those, who have shown they are committed to the EU ideals of free movement by exercising their treaty rights. This will not just be British expats but expats of other EU nations in the UK.
The Brexit campaigners say the EU needs the UK market for it's exports, so will not cuts its nose to spite it's face. I disagree because there is one thing worse than losing an export market and that is losing another EU member like France under Marine le Pen.
Of course , if the UK decides it doesn't need favourable access to the single market, this bet may be off.
"There were no 'facts' just lies when we were asked to vote on staying in the EEC... nothing to do with sovereignty we were assured, just a Customs Union."
Well, I voted in the 1975 referendum and I knew about the Treaty of Rome looking forward to political union at the time, so you must have read what you wanted to read. I was and still would be happy that the original 6 EC states would be involved in the economy, as they had made a much better job of achieving prosperity than our politicians who were addicted to union bashing and reversing all the good things the previous government had implemented. I remember the devaluation of 1967, where the pound in your pocket would not be devalued, who runs the country, the govt or the unions, the 3 day week, wholesale powercuts etc etc. No other economic managers in Europe could do worse than the dickheads who run Britain. It was Britain which pushed for enlargement to water down the influence of France and Germany and it has been enlargement too quickly with no control, which has led to the current situation.
Political Union was known about in 1975. We weren't lied to at all.
Dear Mr Baldock,
I think that the best answer to your original question is to consider the current requirements imposed on Non-EU citizens who wish to take up residency in a particular EU country. In relation to France in particular, it is probably not unreasonable to suppose that the requirements placed upon UK citizens wishing to relocate to France post Brexit, would probably not be too dissimilar from those which are currently imposed upon Americans wishing to come to France at the moment. A visit to the website of the French Consulate in the USA will provide information as to the various types of Visa currently available to US citizens. This link should take you there :- http://www.consulfrance-washington.org/spip.php?rubrique244 You will see that there are a number of different types of long stay visa, and each has it's own set of requirements of course. Happy reading. :-)
I gthink you wll find that the French government cann do to us if the Brit Exit happens. We will no longer be EU citizens and we would lose the protection of some exisitng laws
This is what Enoch Powell prophesised in 1968 :
"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood'. That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the 20th century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now."
He was right of course, we should have taken heed. About three quarters of the British population agreed with him in 1968....
Exactly my point Sandra. UK residents in France are no more scroungers than French residents in the UK ... but that doesn't prevent tabloids from whipping up frenzied lies about ALL immigrants being on the make and scrounging what they can get out of the system.
As a general rule immigrants are the group least likely to depend on welfare: they have made the effort to leave their own country to go and work in another country, not become a welfare-dependent.
Incidentally, from my reading of Richard's post, he is currently in the UK and therefore probably able to vote in the referendum.
It was 40 years ago we voted, things do change.
And it was that cowardly numpty Maggie who signed up to political union without asking us
Yes, he could vote Remain but only if he HAS a vote in the UK ! The majority of ex pats who did not register before their 15 year period was up will not have a vote - most don't have a vote in France or in the UK, thus making them a disinfranchised population ...which I believe, is against the rules ....but the UK prefers not to abide by those rules of course ! I agree it does look likely that ex pats in the rest of Europe are likely to bear the brunt of a BREXIT and treated as unwanted ....scroungers I am not sure, as they would never be entitled to draw any benefits from the French system as they have never paid in (excluding the social contribution bit which would probably be ignored !) unlike any other migrants into the UK who can have anything they like it would seem ! Most of the press seems hell bent on making any OAP look like a scrounger whether in the UK or not ....so we would feel at home ! As to the health care provision, as the OP says, it is us as ex pat OAPs who are likely to suffer most as we have several long term health issues - and we could not afford to return to the UK so we are damned if it Brexits and damned if it doesn't it would seem.................The lovely George's budget schemes are under scrutiny and may have to be amended .....what is the bet he will target OAPs, especially those living outside the UK ? .......never mind, the rich get richer ...............
I live in France and therefore haven't been following the debate in the UK closely. But what I have seen horrifies me! It's as if Enoch Powell was alive and well and had convinced half the country to believe in his racist theories. Is this the country I was born in? Unrecognizeable.
There is a very good reason to stay in Europe: there hasn't been a war between the 28 members since the last world war in 1945. If the UK leaves then other, populist, countries will do the same, start blaming their neighbours for imagined slights and treachery ... and we will be back in 1933.
On a realistic front - and I have lived in France since 1980 - I feel that if the UK withdraws then the French and a number of other members will punish the British already living here. They will be treated as unwanted scroungers. There will be no big issues like visas required but little niggling things like the carte d'identité which needs renewing every quarter, interminable delays for health treatment, strict application of the law regarding driving licences and imported cars etc.
As others have suggested, Richard, you could help by voting REMAIN in the referendum.
The Maastricht Treaty established the European Union under its current name in 1993 and introduced European citizenship
Rgds, Mike L
That's not my recollection of the 1975 referendum.
But I went back and checked the leaflet distributed then to every household in the UK (available at http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm). It stated "The aims of the Common Market are: To bring together the peoples of Europe; To raise living standards and improve working conditions; To promote growth and boost world trade; To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world; To help maintain peace and freedom", and it contained quite a lot more, including explanations of how sovereignty is pooled in other international treaties, statements from all the major Commonwealth prime ministers urging that Britain should stay in, and a comprehensive rebuttal of the question "Will Parliament lose its power" (commenting "No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament...Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would.").
So I think Mr Bowman is wrong to say we were assured that the Common Market was just a customs union.
We know the facts about remaining in the EU - it means things continue as they are.
If the UK leaves then there are some very serious fundamental questions
1 Will the healthcare agreement continue or will we have to go for private healthcare (This will be impossibly expensive for some retirees with health problems)
2 Will our state pensions continue to increase or be frozen as for most non EU expats (effectively a 3% per annum devaluation.
3 Will we continue to be protected from Social contributions (could be an extra 7% tax on income).
The Britexiters cannot answer except to say "they will probably continue as before" which is not very reassuring.