If "saint" means "extremely gullible" I know what you mean! ;-)
If I would take it as far as a hit man (again, please don't worry I wont), I wouldn't use one. I'd do it myself so I look the creep in the eye...
having read the entire thread.....I am still amazed that anyone would choose to live here... dont care what anyone says...you do not get this degree of hounding in the UK and there, there are plenty of organisations that provide support for the consumer...what is it with France and their big businesses...? one could correctly assume that France acts like many communist countries...and allows its citizens to be hounded and bullied by big business...not the socialist experience I would have expected....
Class actions do work and are possible in France. I am currently involved in one.
And if anyone wants to know how real live French people feel about this stuff, please feel free to friend me on FB and check out a post tonight from a real live French person about just how rubbish life can be when trying to take on the 'powers that be.' It is not just us Brits or any other nationality.
I am going to talk to a solicitor and see if we can move this forward and yes Brian, the European courts shine like a Noddy night light in the wasteland that is French interpretation of EU law.
You, I have decided are a saint...at this point...if it was me...I would be looking for a hit man!
OK, very good point. And they don't bite the hand that feeds them. I think one that represents 'Brits' in France is too narrow. SFN's membership is certainly not just Brits and there are some of us who see ourselves as Europeans rather than as narrow as British or French. Sure attitudes are different, but I have lived in Germany where they see British attitudes as sloppy and am married to a Swiss and they see even the Germans as too casual. It is something that needs to be dealt with systemically and therefore more broadly, so that if it (also) did for the French what their organisations fail to do then it would be going where it should. I totally agree about the strength of associations and class actions plus the fact that with that facility there is always the European ccourts to go to. People may not like the EU or its bodies but from experience I know the courts do not stand for nonsense.
Agree - so far we have found our legal 'insurance' to be worse than useless. Let's explore...
Yes but who controls them (the consumer groups)? In 17+ years 'out here' I have not heard of a specialist one that represents 'Brits in France' who are not used to the French commercial attitude. We could 'deal' with members problems quickly. If you believe big French enterprises do not have a worse attitude towards customers than UK ones you are either lucky or haven't been here long enough. I ran/owned businesses in England and France and the attitudes are er.... different.
I totally agree that the law is the last resort and advise stages of negotiation, mediation, arbitration and lastly litigation. But litigation from/by an individual is horrendous these days - but not from an association or 'class' litigation.
Interesting idea Ben
There are already consumer associations to do that. They are usually too busy to deal with every case as quickly as people would like. Lawyers cost a lot and are no guarantee of satisfaction.
Isn't it time we formed an association with a small subscription and well discussed and thought out rules to represent 'members' who are having poor service from the big enterprises? An elected panel could perhaps decide on the merit of cases and whether the accumulated fund could appoint a lawyer. Cases could provide ammunition for future ones. With a little time perhaps these big and intimidating enterprises would learn to respect such representation.
I have used a website called justanswer.com for very good legal, financial and medical advice for the UK - I don't know (yet) if it covers advice in France.
Any thoughts?
That's dreadful Jesper. You really need to get in touch with one of the independent consumer organisations to get some unbiased legal advice as well as an explanation of your rights. Look at the Useful Links page http://www.survivefrance.com/page/useful-links for contact details.
A short(ish) note to let you know about my fantastic experience with the "Médiateur".
The guy sits us down and I was expecting to give the "brief" presentation of our case that I'd prepared, but when he asks what our story is and I first mention the word "EDF" he cuts me off and says "Oh, Mister, EDF... I don't have the means, time or resources to deal with them, it's way out of my league...". Well this is great I said to myself, why did he accept to see us and why did I take my afternoon of to prepare for this and to come here?!?!?
After having exchanged a few words on this issue, he's still willing to talk about it and hear us out. So for the 2nd time, I start running through the story. I had not finished my first sentence (and I am NOT kidding or exaggerating even a little bit), before he cuts me off again. This time he asks to see an EDF invoice of mine (which he'd probably seen poking out from my very large file). I asked him which one he wanted and he just said anyone will do. I gave him random invoice and he started dialling a number. I asked him who he was calling and he said EDF Service Client. I frowned and asked him why (and wanted to add "...on earth, you have not a clue what this is all about?!?" but I didn't). He just lifted his hand and arrogantly said something like, just let me do my job.
He presents himself as "Conciliateur de Justice" and calling on behalf of M. Florén, client number xxxxx, "it would appear you have problem with him" (to me it was more the other way around, I have a HUGE problem with them). As it was not on speaker phone I didn't get much of the conversation but from the replies I gathered that EDF basically said that M. Florén is not paying his bills and we don't like it. After complementing the EDF lady on how marvellously she had answered his questions (!!!) he hung up, looked at me and plainly said "M. Florén, you have not paid your invoices!!! In France we all have to pay our invoices!!!" and stared at me as if he was looking at some kind of low life criminal.
I was about to stuff the EDF down his throat (or up where the sun does not shine) but I figured that going to prison for "assaulting an idiot" would not help neither my case, nor my family.
I then sarkastically asked him if he could spare a few seconds to actually listen to what has been going on since the start of our ordeal. He grudgingly accepted whilst mumbling something along the lines of "whatever you say want change anything, you still need to pay your invoices in France". Again, I stopped the urge of malesting the guy and at the same time gave a discrete sign to my wife so that she would either (smoke was coming out of both her nose and ears).
I would have needed about 1 hour to properly explain all the details of this impressive file. I got 5-10 minutes before he said that this is leading nowhere. I am sorry for you poor Mr & Mrs Florén in an extremely patronising way, but there's nothing "one" can do. He didn't say it out loud but it was roughly "just live with it". If you want to try your luck, get a good lawyer but costs a bomb and you will probably not win. Better just pay your invoices.
Must say that my hopes where not very high of actually making much progress before the meeting, but I was hoping to get some guidelines of what I could do and how I should approach the subject. Which details where juicy enough to bring up, who should I talk to and who can help me out but he had NOTHING to offer. Complete waste of my time. He seemed to enjoy it though. There are too many weird people on this planet...
Coming home, EDF called and wanted to answer to my last mail that I sent regarding the payment plans. It turns out that they had made mistakes (no surprise there) and I should disregard one of the letters (strange as it may seem, they wanted me to disregard the letter that actually correctly summarized what we had decided last Monday). In any case, the total amount to be paid (before end Jan 2013) was no longer clost to €8000, but a meager €3450 (out of which I'd paid 1200€ already). On top of this, I would - OF COURSE - have to pay my new monthly bills that are three times higher than before the Pompe-à-chaleur installation. All in all, I will credit the EDF account by 4500€ between end August and end January 2013. I am not enthused...
I shall keep you posted on the next chapter if they let me use a computer and the mental hospital.
Well...you are still sane, so thats a good thing. You obviously have huge inner strengths...requirement Ive decided for living in France and dealing with their insane big businesses...
I think a solicitor is the only way to go..pains me to say it...but if you want to come out of this without this company mugging you...I dont think there is a choice...
Rooting for you!
Carol.
The law is probably different here. In any case each call to EDF Service Client is recorded (you are informed of this by an automatic voice message before you are connected through).
In any case, I couldn't bring myself to calling them again (I know I probably should have) so I just sent them this short message via their online messaging service in reply to their saturdays "minutes" from our phone conversation :
Bonjour ,
Suite à vos 2 lettres datés le 20/8/2012 je souhaite apporter les précisions suivantes.
1) Nous n’avons pas demandé une facilité de paiement. Après du chantage de votre part (EDF : « soit » vous acceptez ce qu’EDF propose, soit EDF ne vous rebranche pas votre courant), vous nous avez forcé d’accepter vos conditions. Il y a une énorme différence.
2) Les mensualités que vous indiquez ne correspondent pas à notre conversation du 20/08/2012. Malgré mon désaccord (car je les montants dont on parle son sujet de la réclamation toujours en cours), on a évoqué 400€ par mois entre septembre et novembre, et puis un règlement de 389,10€ en décembre.
Après le chantage indiqué ci-dessus, on a aussi dit que les mensualités reprennent à partir du 28 septembre avec un montant mensuel de 212.25€. Aucun autre montant n’a été demandé lors de notre conversation le 20/8/2012 et ne doit ainsi pas être prélevé.
Salutations
I got two replies by mail today. First one :
Bonjour Monsieur Floren
La prochaine mensualité de 212.25 euros sera prélevée sur votre compte bancaire le 28 septembre 2012.
Cordialement
Votre conseiller EDF
2nd one :
Bonjour Monsieur Floren
Cordialement
Votre conseiller EDF
Thanks really helpful...
My message was probably too short, but at least it was slightly longer than their 2nd message... I was kind of hoping that the'd react to the other 2239€ that they want to have back starting tomorrow!
Do contact SFN's Guillaume Barlet too - via the Friendly Advice Group. He is a bi-lingual legal expert and VERY knowledgeable to boot. He's been busy getting married but do send him a message and I'm sure he will respond. Bonne chance!
Absolutely agree with both of you, Catharine and Finn. Jesper has already taken steps (see below) and unfortunately is probably not the only one running up against this kind of problem. Hopefully he will get time to keep us updated - not only will we continue to offer moral support, but he may be helping other members.
I understand your previous hopes that discussion would work.... We have found it far more difficult here...there isnt the politeness and fair play I have previously been used to, and the lack of care regarding how customers feel is quite a shock... trying to get a big company to listen and behave reasonably seems impossible. Im glad you are getting plenty of help and hope you succeed in getting an early resolution.
You're right about one thing, I've let this go on for far too long. You get promises from them left right and center, but at the end of the day, what have they done. Absolutely nothing!
But rest assured, I have the mayor's office really interested now and it seems as if they will help out. I am meeting with a mediateur on Tuesday and have a meeting with a lawyer set up for September. Hoping that things with the mediateur will bring something concrete still this coming week. We'll see. As for moral support, it's welcome of course and more so your ideas on how to end this stuff. The mediateur is a start. UFC and 60 million will hear from me post Tuesday, if the Mediateur thinks it can be of help.
Yes Finn but the great thing about posting on a site such as SFN is not just the 'referrals' but the moral support. And it sounds like Jesper needs all the moral he can get.
Unless the law is totally different here....no company or individual is allowed to tape a conversation without your express permission. I do understand your pain...and frankly the fact that things can go on like this, with these evil bloody companies making people so unhappy and desperate....is a disgrace. I honestly think you need to now take steps, possibly taking them to court. Depends if you are willing to spend....but I think you now understand my previous comment about getting to the stage of understanding why people take hostages! Certainly....I will never have EDF again....I hope you get lots of good advice and can do something about these b*****ds. Truly ....you need legal representation and call this company to account...wishing you all the luck in the world....keep strong and dont let the b******ds get you down!