Hi Simon, yes that is a possibility but I think you might find the Americans would have something to say about that as they would not accept a Russian satellite in the Med.
And I doubt that the Greek people would vote for that either.
In any event:
a) I doubt the Russians would want to enter into another round of political and economic sanctions.
b) No matter who loans the Greeks some dosh, their basic economic problems will remain.
As has been posted you cannot keep on borrowing money, spending it on the "good things" of life and then ask for more.
Good morning John. I have read thru the article by McWilliams and indeed his other articles. His line on the Ukraine is pure unadulterated Kremlin and everything that he writes must be viewed through that left wing political lens.
Nothing wrong with being left wing and a mouthpiece of the Kremlin but not a view that I share, which will not be a surprise.
As for his views on Greece, he is right to say that loading more taxes on the Greek people is not the right way, but that is NOT what is being asked.
I will say it again, the Greek Gov't needs to reduce its social expenditure budget on pensions and other benefits, bring the tax system up to 21st C standards, simplify the tax code and collect all payments due, restructure VAT into a simpler less avoidable practice.
The Greek Gov't will not accept this approach.
It seems to me that once the Gov't says yes we will do this, now can we work out a process of change then I think the EU and etc will be more flexible.
Return to the UK, at last the Labour party is saying that expenditure on Social services is too high (reported on TV yesterday), and so all we are debating is what, when and how. Now they are a credible opposition and electable again, which is what the UK needs for a functioning parliamentary system.
what happens if greece refuses to pay, not a lot, they are declared bankrupt, and start from scratch, perhaps paying a bit of what they owe off say at 10pemce to the pound, as greece has one big industry that a lot of people use they will just rebuild.
if greece goes, then the russians may step in and lend them a lot of cash for control of all major projects, europe does not want this, the greeks do not want it but the greek government is playing chicken with europe and hoping they get the terms that they want.
The problem I have with all this is not the cause or reason for Greece's problems however caused, it's the fact that so many people who should be setting examples of honesty & integrity - elected polititians, bankers, ect, are saying that it is perfectly OK to go back on your word! The new Greek government got in on the promise to break their word & the public went with it.
By all means renegotiate but to not pay anything back? What kind of message does this send when you extend this attitude down to Joe Public? ANARCHY! & you admire this?? I must admit that I did not have you pegged as someone who advocates such behaviour, John, but I admit that I am looking at the situation not from an economic end but from a simple "man of my word" principle. As this attitude filters down the word "trust" will disappear from the dictionary! THAT is my fear.
I’m on a ferry at the moment with limited access so let me be quick. In Ireland I remember when bank mangers actually assessed whether one could repay a loan before lending. I remember the same when I lived in London and it is still the case in France. The World banking crises was created by greedy bankers. US bankers didn’t care if you could repay or not then they sold their toxic consolidated loans worldwide. Irish banks didn’t care either and gave people 110% mortgages on overvalued houses. They could do this because irresponsible bankers in Germany and France lent them unsecured money. When Ireland hit the wallthe Irish banks crashed and instead of burning the unsecured German and French banks, because that would have brought the Euro down, Paddy stepped in and turned private bank debt in to public debt. 64B of it. Now the same greedy bankers have screwed Greece. Of course Greece should never have joined the euro, but it suited Europe to ignore the corruption, the tax evasion, the fiddled finances. Having ignored it they went on to lend billions (while the fat cat bankers earned large bonuses) to Greece. Now all of a sudden it’s all Greece’s fault. My ass. The fault lies in Berln and the banker’s boardrooms.
I admire Greece’s stand and I only wish my goverment had had the courage to do the same.
Thanks, John, but I must still be missing something - "The figures are so scarifying that they prompted one TD, during a debate on the terms of the bailout in December 2010, to thunder: "What legal or moral compulsion is on Ireland to honour in full debt incurred by Irish banks when there was no State involvement?"
Because Irish banks are in Ireland, perhaps?
Blimey! Am I reading this right?
Greece are in the poo because the government was spending far more that it was taking in - common enough with most countries - but unlike most of them it all got out of control. The rest of the EU offer loans which, like a bank, have to be repaid subject to agreed terms. Anyone with a mortgage will know how this works. The then Greek government sign on the dotted line & get the funds. However, in order to make the repayments the fancy holidays, fast cars & expensive restaurants, & the 60 inch plasma TV all have to go on hold until the life giving loan is repaid.
But no! It seems that the Greeks want their cake AND eat it! "What? Economise? Live within my means? To hell with that! We've got your money now so you can whistle for it!" It seems that no-one is prepared to scrimp & save today in order to pay for a better future. I feel that borrowing money & refusing to pay it back as agreed is downright dishonest!
And I'm in the minorty! Collete Brown, it seems, is quite prepared to lend people thousands of her own money & would fully understand if they stiffed her, leaving her in debt & unable to pay her debts! She writes "This is why the Irish government has been so vocal about its opposition to a debt deal - despite the fact that such a deal would set a precedent that could benefit their own people. No, the Irish meekly agreed to repay creditors the full amount, so the Greeks must now do the same, even if no one believes they are capable of making the payments." Meekly agreed....? A deal is a deal, Ms Brown, & when you give your word you should stand by it, not change the rules afterwards.
What has happened to simple honesty?
Ireland is planning to default, yet.
What’s the solution Peter?
McWillams is spot on Peter. The BBC, much as I love them, have their own agenda and are outside the tent pissing in (as we used to say). I understand really well how flakey the Irish “recovery” is and I also understand the hell that Greece has been through. This is not black and white and it’s certainly stupid to compromise the European vision because Germany “says no”. Maybe this is Hollande’s chance to “man up”.
Theo
I spent two years working in Macedonia on a VSO project, so yes I agree with you entirely - corruption is the name of the game and is accepted as "normal"
But I think that if Greece votes No, then it is also voting to leave not only the Euro zone but the EU as well.
And frankly I cannot see what happens if they vote Yes, since the Greek Government has been elected to do the very opposite of what the EU and etc intend.
I just do not see a good way forward for the Greek people.
And whist I may sound uncaring or unsympathetic towards the Greek people, they are the ones who will suffer and for them we should do all that we can.
But I have no idea what!
The political leaders including I expect the current lot will have all their funds locked away safely, will have been avoiding paying tax and all the other dodges that are available to them.
I understand this Peter, and I like the fact that these are the Chinese who have already raised the cream. So, latecomers should not complain because any other investment into black holes of such 'privatisation' coming out of EU budgets is ludicrous, because investors talk a lot about their fancy ideas and when they go bust they want to be bailed out. That's simply the root of the whole problem. A rich private person can buy the hole port, would be funny to look his face when he looks up to the Ponzi-Nirwanna but if a hedge fond would do this with my cash, I would sue them ;-)
During the past 10 years I visited almost every Greek marina for videoworks on private charter yachts and I'm still surprised about certain creativities of port managers. It does not need very much fantasy to imagine what is going to be happen if you have a Non-Eurocurrency member which is EU member with a major tax-free port in the South of Balkans, a region of seismic unemployment and corruption. I think the current managers in Kragujevac, Serbia, would sell like crazy to all these nice close neighbors at the western hemisphere of the 'wider middle-east'. These guys are even more skilled then Maggie's son in the South of Africa...
Yes Peter, what amazes me is that the Greeks don't seem to want to help themselve or at least that's the impression I get. I can't seem to grasp what the Greek government really wants. I can't see how snubbing the EU proposals is a step forward.
You're right, it is a bit warm - i've dug out the fan after spending a few years in the cupboard under the stairs.
Hi Peter B
Yes the article by McWilliams needs a response but it is too bloody hot right now.
But if you are saying has everyone screwed up the answer is surely yes. Nobody will gain from a Greek default or Grexit and the poor will be hit the hardest.
But as I keep on saying, there is nothing unique about the problem Greece faces from other countries including the UK save their unwillingness to change their behaviour as a Gov't and as a nation.
The essential problem with Greece is that it seems unwilling to recognise what it has to do. If it could get past that block the rest would be easy to fix including I suspect new loans.
Well Theo
According to the WSJ which reported this on Feb 14th this year:
"Greece will proceed with the privatization of the country’s main port of Piraeus, Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis plans to tell his eurozone counterparts at a meeting in Brussels on Wednesday, backtracking on previous statements from the new leftist government that had pledged to freeze the deal, senior Greek government officials said."
It appears that the BBC report regarding this issue is essentially correct.
Peter S
Peter what has the Chinese company done with the Greek port? You see, this privatization was done long BC (Before Crisis) Cosco-Built Container Terminal in Piraeus Marks Public-Relations Victory for Beijing | http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-transform-greek-port-winning-ov... Privatisation, thats funny... The German companies actually left BC, bt that's a longer story. Its Merkel who does not know how to explain to the taxcows why they are NOT paying for the Greeks but for the companies and banks which had given this tricksters so much credit. It is about the irresponsibilities of exactly these financial organisations which Merkel always described as "Systemträger" (system carrier) to save them from tax increases.
I find this all so funny watching these brilliant thinkers desperately looking for an explanation with which they believe to convince us why they need to raise taxes. The Greek government is doing all the bankers, politicians, pundits of media and financial markets are asking them to do behind closed doors. Or has the Greek government nationalized anything, have I missed something? Ah yes the plumber and fishermen also has a black account in a tax heaven...
