The North/South divide - just who is better off?

General Discussion
41

Mark, this job application is for officers already holding the rank of Chief Inspector.
There is a somewhat controversial ‘direct entry’ system to enable people to apply for senior posts as Police officers, without going through the ranks. Most of the 40 odd forces have not initiated this system yet.

All of these quoted roles would be support staff.

Here is a link to the government site re the latest Police Pay -

It explains the disctretion element that means officer recruits (new constables) can be put on the first grade immediately. This discretion does not apply to the other federated ranks. Hope this helps clearing things up.

42

Ah, I thought it was a crying face!
I can see that the term police officer can be a bit vague but it is possible to narrow it down to eliminate detectives or support staff. The variation in Manchester however would be similar in Kent though. What about the less ambiguous jobs, though? A Tesco sales assistant is a Tesco sales assistant in any store but gets paid over £2500 more in Manchester than in Folkestone. Whichever way you cut it there is no way that working people in the north are treated worse than their southern peers. Mind you I am put in mind of Disraeli - “lies, damn lies and statistics”.

43

The thing with the Police is that Detectives can also be Constables, Sergeants…etc. A detective Constable is the same as a Uniformed contable and so on. But there are many civillian investigators at a number of levels including Senior Investigating Officers, the only way to find out everything would be an FOI request.
Did’t know about Tesco wages, I would have thoughtb they would be standardised.
You have to feel for those on lower (i.e. all normal jobs) wages who live in the South and who have to live in the area, it is al;most impossible.
We Northerners are lucky to be Friendly and blessed with the best climate and countryside in the UK.
I would probably agree that workers can do more with their money in the North.

Does the North South divide exist in France? I think not, but we have a House in Normandy! Once a Northerner, always…

44

The north south divide doesn’t exist as such in France, but there are indeed regional divides. Some areas have higher levels of unemployment, receive lower levels of state funding, find it more difficult to recruit good medical staff. Doesn’t apply to teachers in the state system, they are sent wherever they are sent. No idea what the police earn, but salaries of state employees in France are lower than they are in the UK. There is no north south divide in the UK, its something simply trumpeted by people who live in a bubble and very rarely get out much.

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45

I agree Mark. I’m from the North East but lived and worked in the South. We have never been able to enjoy the quality of life my family up North have enjoyed. It’s a myth that the North is hard done by and the poor relation. My cousin had this attitude . … until he tried living down South!

46

The purpose of my post was to have a dig at the journalists & TV presenters who seem to take great joy at trying to set people against each other. This north/south divide has been promoted for years & the Channel 4 programme was just another attempt to divide the nation. There is a national minimum wage & though there are variations there is no regional adjustment. So when the media tries to say that the south is rich & the north is poor it is difficult to believe in view of the difference in cost of living. Eventually things will balance out but it takes a certain amount of unity, not regional jealousy.
The media have been at it for years & I would get wound up by the anti french headlines we used to see in the tabloids such as The Sun headlines like ‘Up yours Delors,’ or ‘Hop off you frogs,’ when in a one to one situation there is no ill feeling - unless they have also read the papers!

As I told a local northerner the other day, he would be better off if he spent less money on flat caps & whippets! Fortunately he has a good sense of humour

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47

You may want to try this film: Danny Boon Film

It does suggest there is a very distinct French north south divide in a very amusing way.

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48

@anon90504988. I feel the media enjoys creating and fuelling divisions unnecessarily. It seems, at times, to be hell bent on dividing society rather than uniting it.

49

I am a Southerner and pleased to be so but does it really matter where one is from? At the end of the day we are all English, or British, if you prefer. Where, by the way, does one stop being a Southerner and become a Northerner? From what I have read it appears that one side has a bit of a chip on their shoulder.

50

Watford Gap innit mate?

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51

That’s what my Dad always reckoned :rofl::rofl:

52

Sorry to pick up on this point again Andrew, but I came across this on https://surrey.police.uk which seems to contradict your statement that wages are set by the government - "This year (2017-18), new police constables are welcomed to Surrey Police on a full time starting salary of £25,396 (base pay £22,896 plus £2,500 South East allowance). Our police constables who have successfully completed their two-year probation period are currently earning £26,431, and those with seven years’ service at this rank are currently earning £40,501, with an additional contribution for travel (see below).

The starting salary is made up of a basic salary of £22,896 (higher than most other forces in England and Wales) plus a South East allowance. The South East Allowance is reviewed annually and is currently set at £2,500 per year *."

It continues -
"Basic Salary
Usual starting salaries
for Police Officers £19,773

Surrey Police starting
salary for police
constables £22,896"

There are also additional allowances which enhance that figure. The point I’m making is that individual police forces can set their own pay rates.

www.policeinformation.co.uk also showed a disparity in Chief Officers pay by region (although there are only a few chief officers!). I admit that I do not fully understand the figures & only show them as they are not from commercial recruitment sites -
Cheif Officer’s Pay 2010

Pay Structure from 1st September 2010
Forces C C Salary D C C Salary
MPS (4XACs)
West Midlands &
Greater Manchester �181,455 �139,119 (MPS 8xDACs)
Strathclyde �178,431 �139,119
West Yorkshire �169,359 �135,489
Thames Valley �160,290 �132,237
Merseyside &
Northumbria �157,260 �129,744
Hampshire �154,233 �127,248
Kent Lancashire
Devon & Cornwall �151,215 �124,749

Highest paid? Not a southern county!

53

OK, ‘Pick’ is the correct word, when there is actually nothing to pick at. I understand Police Pay and Regulations, possibly to a higher degree than the majority of the population of the UK.

As I already mentioned on a previous reply, the salaries for chief officers are set by the old Police Authorities, now the PCC’s. I think that your figures and the way they are presented are skewing the impression given.

The Met is the largest force in the UK, the boss there is the Commissioner, he has deputies and assistants. Then I believe the boroughs have commanders. Some of these commanders are responsible for officers and population greater in number than some small forces (the majority of small forces are in southern England).

The forces like Merseyside, GMP, West Yorks, West Mids etc are busy metropolitain areas and have a large population. Therefore the pay for the chiefs is set appropriately.

There is a weighting allowance, again which I have already referred to on numerous occasions. You again refer to the wages of a force that has this weighting allowance , and applies it to recruits, why do you appear to be trying to skew what I have already referred to?

Again, as I have already said and linked to via the govertnments own website, for Recruits, local forces can start them on the first level of pay, rather than the £19000 ish the government recommends. If this includes weighting then it is more in some forces than others.

Police Pay (for the federated ranks) is set Nationally, with the proviso’s already referred to.

The main point I made initially is that you can’t use Police Pay as an argument as to a North / South divide. You may be able to use Police officers (on the same pay point) lifestyles/disposble incomes etc as a reference,. But not purely pay.
Your aim appears to be to prove me wrong, my aim is to have a fair debate on a North / South divide, using true and trusted sources.

:slight_smile:

54

I agree Trevor. There are differences everywhere, and divides even amongst the smallest of communities.

People do try and make a lot of a North/South divide, I think that people should be free to discuss the idea though, as long as they use truly comparable statistics.
Everyone loves a good debate. Especially Up Noth, where obviously Lancashire is far better than Yorkshire, just as Normandy is better than the rest of France!

Tongue in cheek btw. :smile:

55

I was surprised that Mark had used Kent for so many of his comparisons. There are parts of the county where property is surprisingly ‘cheap’ and you would find a big north/south divide comparing Kent on one side of the Thames estuary and Essex on the other. There would also be a big east/west divide If you were to compare costs between Kent and Sussex as well.
Two of my children live in London and the third in Essex. My son in London and his girlfriend pay £1600 a month to rent a small flat. Before that they lived in a Canterbury where a bigger flat was £600. That is a huge difference. My daughter has bought a one bedroomed flat in south London. She could have bought five flats with sea views in Dover for the same money.

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56

I’m not skewing anything, Having told me that " Apart from the London Weighting allowance, Police Officers wages (for federated ranks) are set by the Government and there is a nationally published pay scale" I then find, on their own website, that a new recruit to Sussex police will be paid at a higher rate than most other forces before any local weighting. This indicates that forces are able to set their own pay scales, does it not? I am no expert, however.
The other wages comparisons have not even been mentioned although they also show variations.
I do not have a problem with the variations - they exist all over the world - it is the fact that the media seems to be trying to tell northerners that southerners are living the high life while the north is being deprived of everything. The media seem to be trying to promote ill feeling between the regions based on a false image. My post is trying to prove that the north has more advantages than the media would have us believe & there are areas in the south which are also feeling the pinch.

57

Hi David,
I come from Kent & had a business in Ramsgate. Many of my customers came from a housing estate with a high level of unemployed. London & its surrounding commuter belt towns are not really representative of most of the country, which is why I have not checked figures from there. I have also worked for a transport company so have also spent time in the north.
Nice place to visit (always made welcome, far more than southerners would) but I would not want to live there, Dark satanic mills…!
In the meantime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT0ay9u1gg4

58

Apologies for putting the ‘weighting’ allowances to certain forces peripheral to London under the same umbrella.

Myself my wife and my Brother have between us over 75 years service as Police officers. I can assure you as before, that wages for the federated ranks are set Nationally to a national pay scale.
It is up to each individual force wether they start their recruits on the Government suggested £19000(ish) or start them straight on the first proper point on the Pay scale.
When I last read details on this issue, none of the forces in England and Wales were starting recruits on the £19000.
In addition, for the forces closest to London there are weighting allowances to cater for a higher cost of living. Obviously as a Police Officer you are required to live within a reasonable distance from your place of deployment.

To use Police Pay as a gauge for a North South divide is not appropriate. I am not an expert in Police Pay, but I have a good working knowledge.
Quoting figures that misrepresent the facts, can make people reading believe the author is an expert in a certain area, thus giving the falsity a grounding for fake news and argument.

59

I did say that the figures quoted came from a website, Andrew, so I doubt that anyone believes that I am an expert. If it suits you you can completely ignore the police pay scale in my original post & use instead the other four examples each of which imply a higher rate of pay in the Manchester area than some parts of Kent. My mention of police pay is by no means a criticism of the police forces (for which I have nothing but the utmost respect) but merely an effort to find a nationwide organisation which seems to have regional variations. Surrey police say that their rate of pay for recruits is £3000 higher than most other forces & this does NOT include any weighting which their site says adds another £2500 rather than the £1000 to £1500 offered by some other forces. These are not my figures but theirs. I would assume that they would not put out fake news. Perhaps you should actually check their website https://surrey.police.uk/jobs/police-officer-jobs/police-pay-scale/

60

North south divide I too watched the programme from the UK and thought how sad it was to provide a vision of the north of England in the way it did

I love the north west were I live and although I travel south of the border to spend my summers in my lovely house in France would never really want to live in the South of England. I think this means that we all have choices some people choose to live in the South, mainly in London often for work or economic reasons…basically it all boils down to choice.

I have the most beautiful house in France what the French call a Maison Bourgeoisie set in a town with all amenities in one acre of beautiful garden, 8 bedrooms and 5 reception rooms, could not possibly own something like that it the UK. However, that is not to say that I don’t own property in the UK I have 5 houses which I own all of which are in the north of England, all houses that I would live in myself, but as a canny woman with business sense choose to rent these out and earn an income from these.

The programme rightly showed that there are areas where houses have been left un-occupied and eventually the whole st has become empty. What the programme did not tell the viewers that this is not that simple " that there are not any people that want to live there"

I have been a social worker for the last 30 years and nothing is that black and white. It is often related to a variety of factors many of which for political reasons no one wants to discuss.

I felt a bit disgruntled when I read Mark Rimmers comments since it seemed that it provoked a response ( that maybe the producer’s were looking for ) from people who have little or no knowledge of the situation. What I would say to Mark is if everything was so cheap in the north of England " why are there not more people wanting to live here? " From your comments it would seem that " we have the best here in the North " we don’t pay as much for anything as you do in the South, bigger mortgages more on food petrol, parking etc and get more or less the same wage?
Yeh to me that is great. I suspect I live in a bigger house with more garden, have more outside space better air quality and yes I bet my UK house cost a lot less than yours…but again that boils down to choice.
I have the Rossendale Valley, The Pea District. The Dales, Skipton, Harrogate, Heben Bridge etc all on my doorstep why would I want to live in the South of England? because this is my choice

However going back to the main issue the programme was not just about the North South divide it was about concern of lack of housing, overcrowding and people in general ( and rightly so ) that they could no longer afford to buy their home or even get a home to rent.

In the North all my children own their own homes and see this as something that they have a right to do if they work hard which they do. The government is to blame for turning a blind eye to foreign investors for allowing the housing crisis to become what it has today ( mainly in London ) but the house prices in the south of the country are clearly outrageous.

Don’t belittle the housing stock and lifestyle of the North of England purely on economics since I know from my English friends in France ( many of who are from the South of England ) is one of the fundamental reasons for moving to France is that property is cheaper ( and in my opinion cheaper does not mean poorer quality) Parts of France just as in the UK vary in price according to location. For many of us when we buy our homes in the area that we choose we often don’t blink an eye at this. France ( with the exception of Paris etc ) does not have the same bias we allude to in the UK and if it does then us Brits don’t seem to care about this. Often we cannot understand why the property is so cheap in the little villages that we all drive through, the Brits might want to live there but the French might not?

I have been a member now on this site for a number of years and this is the first time I have felt the need to participate in any debate but for me the North of England is not the end of the world. We are educated, we do live in nice houses, a lot of us do go to work, and we love the part of the country we live in. The programme in my opinion was not meant to show how bleak it is in the North but that there are parts of the North were there are no jobs, people leave areas because the crime rate is so high they don’t feel safe, schools are poor and for a variety of other reasons. Yes I sometimes get fed up of listening what is happening south of the border and it seems that money is always being invested in this area. For me that fact that these programmes show the government for what they are and the promises they make, allow me to use my vote at election times in a more informed manner and ask the questions some of which were raised in the programme

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