Trees, neighbours and boundaries

Sorry Brian but this idea is a big no no, we have been working farmers here in France for the last 10 years and it is a golden rule between us all that we do not rent land to other local Farmers even our local Department of Agriculture advises against it, you will find it like Stella writes extremely difficult to take back control of your land.
Please start as you mean to go on and be firm and polite with your neighbours but do not give in to them they will always treat it as a sign of weakness on your behalf and will take advantage, land in rural France means a lot more to people than money.

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It’s a pity really because at the end of the day everyone looses out.

Brian, was this the Notaire’s suggestion or yours?

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Paul you are a very knowledgeable man but this is a side of France that goes back for years and years and can sometimes seem unfair to those that never experience it :smiley:

It does seem odd. Actually I was sort-of aware of the problem when I initially responded to Brian’s post but could not quickly put my finger on a reliable source so refrained from commenting. I was able to confirm my other suspicion which was that the land-owner can be responsible if animals escape from fields and do damage - even if the land owner does not own the animals. So, as we have observed, the situation is fraught with risk for the naïve and unwary.

Actually, thinking about it, this situation also illustrates why having one Notaire standing in the middle of a contractual agreement between two people is not (necessarily) a good idea. In this case he should have known the potential for problems for Brian if he enters into such an agreement yet he seems not to have warned him of this. Not sure that means he wants to mislead Brian (I’d be worried if it was the Notaire’s suggestion though) but it does reflect a difference in the role of Notaire as opposed to solicitor in the UK.

Brian - I think you have posted that the Notaire seems quite friendly etc but remember that his job is only to ensure the legal side of things is sound, not to ensure that one side or the other is not entering into a disadvantageous agrement. On the whole I think they take their impartiality seriously but, unlike a UK solicitor, they represent the State, not individuals.

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In my immediate area the population is split in two over a land dispute. Neighbours, cousins, aunts and uncles either speak to each other or not depending upon which side of the split they were on. Even I who was 100% neutral am considered by the population in general to on a particular side. The only place I’ve seen the two groups together was at a family funeral.
The problem arose after land belonging to a local woman, who I know because her husband did most of the carpentry in my house, was farmed by her aunt’s husband for several years. The landowner was approaching retirement and wanted to sell the land. The farmer said that the price was too high but another local farmer was willing to pay the asking price. The first farmer then claimed that he was entitled to buy the land at a reduced price because he was the resident farmer when it was put on the market. It went to court and after a very long time the court made a decision, if the farmer wanted the land he would have to pay the asking price. At that point the second farmer decided that he did not want the hassle and scrutiny that would go with farming land in front of the other farmer’s house and he pulled out too. The land was never sold and the plan that the seller had had to sell off a small part as building plots fell through too when the commune changed their new housing policy. For the last few years the land has been farmed by another cousin but he has been paid to do so by the owner so he is effectively an employee not a tenant. The split in the community caused by one cousin letting another use their land does not look like going away in the foreseeable future.

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Paul… the incidents that I relate here on the forum… do not identify the people involved. They know that I will use their experiences (good and bad) in an anonymous manner… in exactly the same way that I raise questions at the Mairie and other Govt Offices…(and wherever else).

The Rules regarding Land… are clear and available to all.

If you know where to look and speak French - but it sounds as though they are not cut and dried as a court case was needed to settle the example you gave. Of course, as with much legal stuff it depends on statute, custom, precident and the individual circumstances.

But, as I said it is useful to remind oneself of the difference between a Notaire and a solicitor. The Notaire is supposed to be impartial and to advise on matters of law, make sure an agreement is legally sound, title is passed correctly etc. but not (so far as I am aware) to go further.

Which is fine if the two parties are equal but when one does not speak the language and has not grown up with the customs, is not aware of the precedents and norms of the local area then that impartiality could start to look like bias.

What we can all agree on, I suspect, is that Brian should tread carefully (and consider separate legal advice).

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:wink::slightly_smiling_face: what we can all agree on is that Barry would be well advised to take on board what we have all said… :thinking::wink:

“legal advice” does not always cut the mustard… when the Land rules are so cut and dried.

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By Barry I think you mean Brian as in me. Ok this has me really worried now as this was both the estate agent s and Notaires suggestion to ensure. So should I now contact the notaire and cancel the agreement or contact the agent to do it on my behalf? The notaire advised an annual contract signed by both parties renewed on a yearly basis. Maybe if I let it for a year then terminate the contact? Would that work?

Sorry Brian (not Barry)… the whole point is… no way can it be renewed on a yearly basis… .and best NOT to have a written Agreement.

If you unable to cope with the land yourself, you can offer a neighbour the hay, if he cuts the grass… for example… not written agreement, just verbal between the two of you… likewise, if the neighbour has cows/sheep… you and the neighbour can arrange a “grazing” session… nothing written down…

All I can do is advise… it will be your decision.

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Heartliy agree with Stella and others here. Do not enter into a written agreement under any circumstances! Without going into details it’s something I have had personal experience of and would not wish the same misery on anyone else !

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I can see that a written agreement would make it easier for a farmer to prove that (s)he had use of the land but would not an informal agreement eventually fall foul of the same custom - if the farmer could produce witnesses to the fact that they had regularly grazed their animals for instance?

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Paul… as I say… a verbal permission to do a one-off… is ok… then the land goes fallow… then another verbal permission… for a specific task… this is how it works in the countryside… amongst farmers and their neighbours (whether they are also farmers or not).

Best thing for a new owner is to allow no-one onto the land until the new owner is there in person and can discuss face to face a simple action which could be to mutual advantage (such as cutting the grass for hay)…

Sadly, I have seen too many people fall foul of thinking they can circumvent the Law (and not just in Land)… :neutral_face:

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Whoa - there’s a lot to learn isn’t there. It’s wonderful that people are willing to share their experience on here. Our tree-cutting neighbour has been kind, helpful and friendly up until now so we’ll assume it was an honest mistake and let it go. However my trust will grow after he actually does return the wood.

I have another question so I’ll start a new topic… about hunters.

In view of the fact that you already know the farmer had his eye on the land, for the reasons other posters have raised I would be VERY wary of this arrangement.
Sounds like you are lucky SAFER was not involved otherwise the farmer would have been given first option on the land.

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But verbal permission to graze regularly could lead to problems or are people generally honourable.

Out of interest what French law enshrines the right in continuum to something which was granted only temporarily?

Paul… I have outlined what happens. The Law states that if a farmer has the use of the land year on year… he can claim that right… (obviously it is more detailed than that)… but no matter if on 31st December the owner&farmer say… right, that’s the end of this year’s agreement, now let’s sign a new 12 month agreement for next year… :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

The use of the land is continuing…year on year… and that is the crucial bit. The farmer lists the land as being available to him… and no-one else gets a look in, let alone the owner…

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer - what Code de Loi & which Article(s) are pertinent?

If you don’t know to that depth no worries - I’ll see if I can do some research myself - it’s just to satisfy curiosity though.

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Paul, there is so much here that isn’t like the UK.

We accept that, after all its our choice to live here, but do try to warn others by our experience.

The issue of land being ‘grazed’ because the owners think that it’s great that the friendly farmers are keeping the grass down is a big one. There are lots of geniune nice people who do try to help their new British /Dutch/Belgium, even Parisien neighbours, alas there are others who know that once you give permission then it’s almost like having a ‘right of way’ and there is nothing that you can do to dislodge this right.

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