I put mine in box C2 UK pensions and purchased annuities
Give full details of your work pensions and or any purchased annuities below.
Full description of income and name and address of the UK payer
Payer’s reference number
Date payments began
Regards
Thanks Larkswood12, I see it now.
@Allen61 I’m appalled if HMRC say they are refunding tax withheld from a UK source pension for a French resident only once they are satisfied French tax has been paid.
This could surely create very lengthy waits for (sometimes serious levels of) refunds. In addition, there are obvious cash flow issues of having suffered withholding from the UK,then paying over actual tax on the gross amount to France, and then presumably waiting several more months for HMRC to accept evidence of the latter.
Has anybody in practice actually seen this happen, or is this a junior (?) HMRC person speaking out of turn/making it up as they go along?. Unfortunately there is nothing in tax treaties that deal with the mechanics and cash flow of withholdings and refunds in these circumstances, to challenge HMRC if this really is their practice.
This wasn’t a requirement for us - NHS pension etc. Technician said they would need a DTT form for each provider.
I agree it would be appalling! If made a requirement, one would probably get a tax appeal through the tax tribunal in the intervening period.
@KarenLot - Just a thought - the three forms:
Would they be applicable for a DTT exempt claim back? I think they were for ensuring a correct UK tax rate is applied - not a no UK tax rate? Would HMRC accept the forms in the first place?
That’s what a normal UK resident would use - just 1 of those 3 forms - if emergency tax had been taken on first withdrawal.
Yes it would be nice if HMRC stopped this emergency tax overtaxing on first withdrawal. But there’s no hint that they will, and I don’t believe they treat foreign residents differently. I suspect if you get your DT form for the pot in promptly, the withheld basic rate tax (currently 20%) might eventually not apply for later withdrawals. But this isn’t something I know for sure as I don’t know if HMRC can issue an NT/‘no tax’ code for a pension pot nor if every provider would have to or would be able to administer one…
I would have tbought the only way to stop HMRC taking this emegency tax on first taxable withrawal would be never to make a taxable withdrawal 
.
So “small pots”, or just keep growing the fund and never take more than an aggregate of 25% of its value at the time of the latest withdrawal ,:-)… , or transfer the pot out of HMRC’s resch which means QROPS (and most transfers may only be able to be from pots which have not been touched - not sure about to QROPS but suspect so mostly too).
@George1 What HMRC told me is to complete DT France Individual again and then I would get the tax back. I’m keen to get confirmation from someone who has already endured the actual process.
One thing I will emphasize is that Standard Life (fairly big) gave me no options other than tacking the whole pot in one go, i.e. no drawdown and no annuity ( I do have a UK bank account ). I am asking them why and depending on answer may contact the Financial Ombudsman.
As I suggested though then if you’re stuck with this then you’d just transfer it to another provider after checking that provider would fit in with your plans for access
Allen, you really shouldn’t have to complete the DT1 more than once per pension plan, assuming it has been correctly completed in full, & stamped by your French tax office etc. That form when forwarded to the correct department in HMRC then triggers both the refund and the issue of an NT code going forwards, assuming the relevant parts of DT1 are filled in.
HMRC have no right whatsoever to insist on French tax having been paid on the pension BEFORE issuing a refund. I went through the relevant HMRC (internal guidance) Manuals today to check, and none state any such requirement under the UK/France treaty.
The actual treaty itself absolutely does not require the pension to have been taxed in France for it to be exempt in the UK (some other treaties do explicitly require this). Obviously the assumption is that as a French resident the pension will be reported and taxed in due course in France…
I’m at the stage of having filed the (stamped) form myself with HMRC who have been sitting on it for 2 months…and counting. I’m waiting for a refund and NT code going forwards. A number of people on this site have mentioned they’ve obtained refunds via the DT1 process without flagging up any issues. Fingers crossed for all of us…
Hi @George1 , thanks I agree. I expect to complete DT France once for the tax that HMRC will take. Even though I’ve already done the form for my DB company pension. Interesting that you checked the HMRC manuals. Perhaps I was told what someone thought or assumed. Can I ask if you are taking your whole pot in one go. Standard Life have said no to Drawdown and Annuity which I am challenging them on (slow process), all they are offering is one payment.
Hi Allen, for this particular withdrawal that I’m seeking a UK tax refund (via form DT1), it is is the remaining 50% balance of a plan, post the withdrawal of an initial 50% earlier this year. It isn’t a Standard Life plan.
However I do have a couple of Standard Life plans that I will in due course take as 100% lump sums, to seek to benefit from the favourable @7% French tax treatment. I can’t see anywhere on my plan info where SL limit me to one payment only, ie they seem to offer annuity, drawdown, and/or lump sum options. Hope this helps.
I made a first withdrawal from my UK based SIPP pension in March. I filled in the France Form Individual DT and sent it to my impots, but they refuse to stamp it for me. They say that I have to actually pay tax on the amount drawn down before they can stamp the form, which is patently absurd. What is more absurd is that they stamped my OHs FFI DT 2 years ago, when she drew down from her pension without issue. I’ve tried to argue this with them, but to no avail. I tried to make an appointment to see someone about this, but they cancelled my appointment the day before by text message, giving me no opportunity to answer them. Idiots.
As you say, their refusal to stamp your form is ridiculous, given there is no initial requirement in the tax treaty for you to have already paid French tax on the pension. I don’t t know whether you wish to escalate this?
Apologies if you already know/have considered the following route…
You can advise the local French tax office that you propose to take up the matter with the 'competent authority ’ for the treaty at HMRC. Each treaty has a senior official, ie the ‘competent authority,’ appointed by each of the 2 countries, and they resolve amicably between them specific difficulties thrown up by the operation of the treaty. They know exactly how the treaty works and cut through any nonsense from their respective administrations.
Maybe then allow the local tax office time to digest your threat, consult with their hierarchy etc and hopefully come back with a more sensible response, which is to stamp your form. If all else fails, then write to the competent authority at HMRC head office, though I suspect it will have been resolved by the prior step.Good luck.Do let us know how you get on with whatever next steps you take?
I am currently at the same stage of considering full transfer of two DC pensions to France. They would be transferred separately into a SIPP in the UK, then 100 % withdrawal to cash in France (and then into Assurance Vie investment). On the question of the NT code, my advisor said that the process is to take a token withdrawal from the SIPP (couple of hundred pounds) and transfer to France. Then, assuming tax is applied, an NT code is applied for and the subsequent withdrawal or encashment is transferred to France at zero tax rate.
Apparently this is acceptable to the French authorities in terms of the 7 or 7.5% flat tax rate (plus social security) conditions (has to be a one off 100% transfer of the fund) because the first small payment is specifically to obtain the NT code.
I’d like to know if anyone has actually done this successfully?
I’d also be interested in comments on experiences with investments once the pension pot is transferred to France? I have been advised Assurance Vie as mentioned (Irish based but French conformity) but there would be others such as QNUPS, or a French pension (PER etc)… Maybe that should be another thread…
Thanks for the informative information so far in this thread, and in advance for any comments on the above!
I moved all my UK pension pots (seven of them) to a QROP - Qualifying Recognised Overseas Pension Scheme - Wikipedia
Based in Malta it complies with all the requirements of the UK government so it transferred with no issues / tax or otherwise.
The money is sitting in a pension investment portfolio and is managed - that results in about 2.5% a year charges but I am seeing quite good growth.
Perhaps this should be in writing rather than relying on ‘Apparently’. I’m sure France is very happy to facilitate reception of tax on UK pensions, but it’s such a large amount if they don’t I think I’d want to make sure in writing from my tax inspector before the deed!
That said, SF posters have reported success with the flat tax rate after taking the 25% tax free lump sum.
I guess the proof of the pudding will be when you come to take it out in France! Glad you got good growth! I’m -10% with inflation but hoping France house prices aren’t at that inflation rate!
You must be protected now from currency risk though?
Its 7.5% after a 10% reduction, effectively making it 6.75%. If you are resident in France then you will not get the 25% tax free lump sum as far as your French declaration goes. Also, if in the French health system , social charges will also be applied.
I have had an annual withdrawal this year and last. Last year growth was around 18% and this years so far about 10%.
It did give me a squeaky bum moment when it all started to disappear at the start of the covid pandemic - most of it had only been in the investment for a few months, but it did recover.
Ah, I meant it would be a large amount if one was not allowed the flat tax rate and it was taxed at scale rate.
I see you are taking your pot in bits so presume taxed at scale rate?
Thanks for the telco rec on the other thread - kicking myself I didn’t cancel my SFR number at the time. C’est la vie!
But not the UK taxman. To successfully transfer your pension pot outside the UK, without incurring a large charge from HMRC (equivalent to your highest rate of tax in the UK), you need to transfer into a QROPS. Unfortunately, there are no HMRC qualified QROPS based in France, so that is a non starter. The current favourite destination is Malta (as @PeterJ uses) but other destinations are acceptabe. Before you do anything with your pension pot, you need to talk to a financial advisor. If you do it yourself and are not aware of the potential pitfalls, you may find yourself paying 40% of your pension pot to HMRC.
Same here. Allthough my pot is still in the UK (for the time being) it tanked at the start of the pandemic, but has recovered all the losses and much more since. Looking at it over 3 years, it’s as though the pandemic never happened, in fact over that period it’s done pretty well.