Violence in French schools

[JohnH]

@Porridge

as arresting someone for silently praying in the wrong place.

I think this is quite disingenuous, as the only cases I’m aware of were effectively attempts at harassment of women entering clinics.

[billybutcher]

@JohnH

I think this is quite disingenuous, as the only cases I’m aware of were effectively attempts at harassment of women entering clinics.

I would concur - I’ll look at the detail of the Vaughan-Spruce case later (at work just now so don’t have the time to look up the case) , I think there is a wider context here though it probably isn’t what the headlines claim.

[Porridge]

@JohnH

@Porridge

as arresting someone for silently praying in the wrong place.

I think this is quite disingenuous

Not disingenuous at all.

I did a bit of research before forming an opinion. I admire your economy of effort in omitting the research step and proceeding straight to forming an opinion

Here’s something to help: Abortion clinic charges dropped against Wolverhampton priest - BBC News

Funnily enough , the BBC report shows people with banners, whereas the evidence is that Vaughan-Spruce was merely standing there: https://youtu.be/wXURFRSUS9U?si=70_TzDwADwjWzfSx

[billybutcher]

The issue is not the prayer - neither I, anyone here or anyone else can prove what was going on in that person’s head - it might have been prayer, it might have been silently screaming hatred at those using the clinic.

The issues are whether this was a protest, whether it was designed to intimidate, whether it fell foul of the public order act and whether that act goes too far in criminalising peaceful protest and freedom of thought.

However, please remember:

Your religion, does not get to tell me how to behave and being “religious” does not automatically make you a good person.

[billybutcher]

@Porridge

Funnily enough , the BBC report shows people with banners, whereas the evidence is that Vaughan-Spruce was merely standing there:

Different context - one clearly outside a courtroom, one in the street.

The fact that the Catholic church is trying to make this about “prayer”, which cannot be proven, rather than about whether it was intimidation (the fact that it appears at first glance to be repeated behaviour might have had some bearing on the arrest and any charges) is suspect IMO.

There is no difference between standing there praying, standing there with the intent to intimidate others and standing there singing “beautiful day” in your head.

This is not about “prayer”, whatever obfuscation the Church are trying to pull.

[Porridge]

@billybutcher

There is no difference between standing there praying, standing there with the intent to intimidate others and standing there singing “beautiful day” in your head and merely standing there

I’ve added the final words to illustrate the absurdity of the original order (made under s. 59 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/12/section/59/enacted

Do you really think it’s okay to criminalise just standing somewhere and praying? Doing nothing more than that (because all the evidence I can find is that that is all she did)?

Normally you’re strongly against restricting the right to protest (see here, for example: PM and his cabinet to resign? - #33 by billybutcher). Do you support freedom of speech and thought only on topics you agree with?

“If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

[billybutcher]

@Porridge - please forgive the fact that I have not had time to look through this properly yet, and probably will not get to do so until this evening at least. Wasn’t it you suggested “a bit of research” was necessary “before forming an opinion”

@Porridge

Normally you’re strongly against restricting the right to protest (see here, for example: PM and his cabinet to resign? - #33 by billybutcher). Do you support freedom of speech and thought only on topics you agree with?

Yes, I am - see above. I have outlined the things I want to consider in this case rather than firm conclusions that I have reached. However I can see enough that it is clear the business of “prayer” is a deliberate distraction.

@Porridge

Do you really think it’s okay to criminalise just standing somewhere and praying?

Let’s (as above) leave that at “Do you really think it’s okay to criminalise just standing somewhere”. You can’t prove she was praying, I can’t prove she was praying, the Pope can’t prove that she was praying.

Normally, no, I’d say peaceful protest should be allowed - I am tempted to think the Police overstepped here but I have yet to make up my mind.

I note that a lot of the footage is from US media outlets with a distinct RW bias such as Fox, I doubt their first priority is a truthful unbiased reportage.

@Porridge

“If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

Agree.

[Porridge]

@billybutcher

I note that a lot of the footage is from US media outlets with a distinct RW bias such as Fox, I doubt their first priority is a truthful unbiased reportage.

That was my thought too. I particularly didn’t like the fact it was Fox.

However I could not find any instance of a British news outlet showing the video.

[billybutcher]

So, looking around I did come across this (ref):

She was later charged with breaking a Public Space Protection Order, said by Birmingham City Council to have been introduced to ensure “people visiting and working there have clear access without fear of confrontation”. Vaughan-Spruce will appear at Birmingham Magistrates’ Court on February 2 next year.

That dates from Dec 2022.

So, this is not about her general freedom to stand on any old street corner and pray (or not).

It is about the fact that she was in violation of a previous order covering that space - one presumes there had been prior issues with the clinic.

I also suspect that she knew about the order so was being provocative, at the very least.

As I said, not at all “straightforward”.

[Poons]

I must remind you that both Christianity and Islam have their origin in the same part of the world

[billybutcher]

Indeed basically worship the same god.

[SuePJ]

Dave Allen: “May your God go with you”. We each have our own and that includes the gods of science, rationality, atheism, rain, empty parking spaces, lost objects, kitchens.

I think his phrase should have been “May your Gods go with you”. I like the Norse / ancient Greek / ancient Roman / etc /etc versions of all of this rather that a single deity, we all have many gods and some can be playful and others very annoying, but much more fun than a single man in white habit with a beard. Or these days Morgan Freeman.

[Porridge]

@billybutcher

Indeed basically worship the same god.

Where on Earth did you get that idea from?

(I’ll give you a clue why it’s nonsense. One of them gets its name from the God it worships; the other considers Christ merely a prophet. Oh, dang, I’ve given it away )

[Porridge]

@SuePJ

Dave Allen: “May your God go with you”. We each have our own and that includes the gods of science, rationality, atheism, rain, empty parking spaces, lost objects, kitchens.

… some [gods] can be playful and others very annoying, but much more fun than a single man in white habit with a beard. Or these days Morgan Freeman.

I don’t know. I rather like the idea of a God whose first thought, after helping his mates land a huge catch of fish, was to do a barbecue!

[billybutcher]

@Porridge

Where on Earth did you get that idea from?

The fact that they are all Abrahamic religions?

@Porridge

I’ll give you a clue why it’s nonsense.

Just because they have different names for their god(s), doesn’t mean thay are not the same one.

I can’t tell if your post is serious, sorry

[Porridge]

@billybutcher

Just because they have different names for their god(s), doesn’t mean thay are not the same one.

@Porridge

One of them gets its name from the God it worships; the other considers Christ merely a prophet.

Obviously I was too subtle, something I’m not often accused of

For Christians, God is the trinity of Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. I really don’t think here is the place to expand on the doctrine of the trinity, but I’m sure you could look it up if you were interested.

For Muslims, Jesus is only a prophet.

So lumping both faiths together (you missed out Judaism) and suggest they worship the same god is a bit like white British people referring to non-white people as “coloured”.

(No offence taken, of course.)

[billybutcher]

@Porridge

No offence taken, of course.

None intended

But the fact remains that Judaism, Christianity and Islam originated in the same part of the world, from substantially the same mythology.

@Porridge

I really don’t think here is the place to expand on the doctrine of the trinity, but I’m sure you could look it up if you were interested.

You mean the fact that it was a fudge dreamt up by some 3rd century synod to try to reconcile the fact that Christianity was a monotheist faith with at least two and possibly three gods?

[Susannah]

Let’s get back to violence in French schools!

This article from a Hong Kong newspaper in 2018 would indicate that the problem is not new.

France considers putting police in schools to tackle violence

Police in schools were discussed nearly a decade ago. Had they been installed, yet more children would not have needlessly died.

[Ancient_Mariner]

@billybutcher

You mean the fact that it was a fudge dreamt up by some 3rd century synod to try to reconcile the fact that Christianity was a monotheist faith with at least two and possibly three gods

One would expect formalised theology to develop with a change in practical understanding.

[Ancient_Mariner]

@Susannah

Police in schools were discussed nearly a decade ago. Had they been installed, yet more children would not have needlessly died.

That’s likely true, but they shouldn’t be needed. Faith and secularism seem more commonly to violently clash in France than the UK. I wonder if it’s possible for de-escalation to happen, and those feeling the need for violent opposition to state values can be enabled to feel less threatened so they don’t contemplate physical resistance.