I don’t think one can lump all folk together…
and sweeping negative statements don’t seem to help, just risk inflaming … they are best avoided if one can… but that’s just my view…
life’s too short and I have other pressing priorities 
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@cat if any member of SF posted that, I think they would be asked to edit their post, and rightly so. Outright calling someone racist is not acceptable.
@billybutcher got it right in his reply.
You know it really isn’t about racism, but far more about preservation and protectionism. My previous remarks referred to immigrants (meaning those who arrive from elsewhere), and made no mention of their race, colour, or creed. I am not a racist, but in some respects I am a preservationist and/or protectionist. I will explain further for those who care to read on.
I was born and bred on an Island where in good part, the economy relied on the summer tourist trade. People came for holidays because they liked the place, and liked the consequences of the way that the island was run. Over time, some of those visitors decided to retire to the island, and their arrival, and their money from ‘over the water’, was welcomed as an improvement to the year round economy. Among the Islanders these folks were known as ‘Overners’, not as a derogatory term but as a factual one.
Unfortunately, some of these Overners became politically active and started to put forward ideas that were not popular with the Islanders. The reason that people from over the water wanted to come and live on the island was because they liked the place, and that was in good part precisely because of the way the place was run by the Islanders.
As an Islander, I say to all Overners, “You are welcome, but don’t interfere with the way we run the place, as that is in great part the reason why you came here in the first place”
Sometimes, after at least 20 years, an Overner may start to become an Islander in some small ways, but it takes a very long time and will never be a complete transformation. We are what we were born and bred to be, and deep down inside there will always be those remnants.
I am an ‘Overner’ here in France. I don’t understand the customs, traditions, and culture of this place, nor will I ever be able to assimilate all the nuances of the language. I like the place, but it would not be appropriate for me to involve myself politically at any level simply because I am not, and never will be, a local.
So that’s a summation of my view. I don’t think that it makes me a racist, in the same way that I don’t think criticising the government of Israel makes a person Anti-Semetic.
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Me, for example. Speaking as a française de souche I can’t really understand the thought process that causes people who have become French or just come to live here, making things super-exclusive and difficult and excluding for other foreigners.
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My French grandmother, married an Englishman who forbade her to speak anything but English (since he didn’t understand French)… (she must have loved him very much !!)
Thinking about it now… I’d give him a good telling-off if I could… smacks of bullying to me. Because of his intransigence, the possibility of speaking 2 languages from childhood was lost to all of us… and our French relatives got lost in the mist…
I am not an “Overner” I am an Immigrant now Permanent Resident in France… as French as I can be… certainly 1/4 of me is French and the rest would love to follow…
I thoroughly enjoyed the many, many parts of England which my family dragged me to… always a great adventure… but I was always ready to move on… and we did!
From my first visit to France 50 years ago, it “felt right” and OH and I came back again and again.
Now, permanently settled for longer than I’d ever been anywhere in UK… I have no wish to move-on.
It’s as if I’ve finally “come home”.
OH and I are fully integrated in the local community and much further afield as well…
I can’t imagine staying “on the sidelines”… that’s not us at all… dive-in and get on with it… that’s us… and we’ve been welcomed with open arms…
There’s always too much community work in rural areas… and never enough community workers… (and what a great way to meet people and make friends).
I accept that not everyone wants to mix… wanting to keep apart… fair enough…
That’s certainly not the lifestyle I would enjoy…
but I know several Brits who do just that… keep themselves in their little groups and miss out on so much French Life…
ah well, I do invite them, handing over the fliers… but I can’t drag them in … 'cos that wouldn’t be right either.
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The devil is in the detail. I did not say ‘you are racist’ . I said that comment is racist claptrap. Which it is.
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It’s a reasonable point.
However, I don’t think becoming politically active should ever be described as unfortunate (at least not in democracies).
If the incomers are outnumbered by the native islanders then it is unlikely that they will force their ideas on the population as a whole if a democratic vote is taken - at least not if they are not good ideas for the community as a whole.
I admit that there is a problem if incomers start to outnumber natives - a problem with which many communities have struggled and which has elements outwith the current conversation but inextricably bound with it such as forcing local housing prices up beyond the reach of locals and not contributing much economically when they visit for only a few weeks each year but we’re not currently discussing that - we are talking about people who live permanently in a community and contribute to it just as much as every other member of that community.
Why should they not have a vote in local elections - indeed as they will be paying national taxes why should they not have a vote in the national elections.
If one moves from Paris to Lyon, one does not loose the right to vote - why should Bruxelles to Lyon be any different, or Birmingham to Lyon for that matter, even post Brexit?
OK, most nations draw the line and limit voting to citizens, deciding who can vote is within the competence of a sovereign state, after all, so there’s not much to be done about that.
Even if I do think it illogical.
Of course I’m a second home owner myself, and not blind to the problems that it can cause. We have about 21% maisons secondaires in the village - which surprised me for a nondescript and rather sleepy village in 56) and which is much higher than the surrounding villages (with one, rather touristy exception and even that is only at 23%
Are your village’s ‘second home owners’ in the English sense? Certainly In our village many mediaeval houses are owned by French people who usually live in Paris or the Cote d’Azur and their ‘second’, or rather family homes, may go back several centuries.
Isn’t there a problem where natives FEEL they are being outnumbered (and being told this by Farage etc)
I don’t know - I’m going off the insee data which doesn’t break down ownership by nationality - I know of a few other Brits in the village, in fact we seem to have landed (unintentionally) in the middle of something of an enclave (4 other British owners within 100m, that we know about).
We don’t have oodles of properties that look like they have been in bourgeoise families “for centuries” though - maybe the local château but that’s about it.
In the specific case of the UK and Brexit - and Farage’s (in)famous “Breaking Point” poster, yes.
I still do ont see why ppeople living in, and more importantly paying taxes in, a locale should be denied representation.
Clearly @cat and I are of different opinions in relation to the subject at hand. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable that she should describe my comments as being ‘claptrap’ should she so wish. However, qualifying, and indeed magnifying the word ‘claptrap’ by preceding it with the word ‘racist’ is inaccurate. Nowhere in my comment did I adversely refer to anyone by virtue of their race, colour, creed, ethnicity, or religious belief. Therefore my comment contained no racist content whatsoever, and thus whilst it may be referred to as ‘claptrap’ it is wrong and inaccurate to refer to it as ‘racist claptrap’.
One is left wondering that if the word ‘immigrant’ is unacceptable to some here, then what other words are also to be banned lest they be misconstrued. Is emigré acceptable, and what about emigration, or indeed migrant or migration ? It would just be nice to know in advance as to what terms are acceptable.
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Perhaps you are right Robert - that the word immigrant has become tainted by the right wing and is now, perforce, a pejorative term.
It is interesting how use and abuse of language shapes thought (shades of Newspeak here), I’m not sure what politically neutral term I would offer.
Not that it would change my view that there should be no taxation without representation.
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Fundamentally, and in principle, I couldn’t agree with you more on that one Billy.
However, I don’t mind paying French taxes as it was my choice to come and live in France. I don’t really mind that I am not represented as I just sort of view the taxes as the required abonnement for the privilege of living in such a fascinating place, and being provided with many services and facilities.
What does bug me however is the requirement that I pay UK tax, regardless of where in the world I choose to live, just because I have what is defined as a ‘Government’ pension. I wouldn’t even mind paying that, provided that I had a UK vote. Of course I can’t vote in the UK as I have been absent for more than 15 years, but they still demand my tax money even though I use no services there at all. All in all it’s a funny old world.
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The meaning in your comment seemed clear enough to me. Just to be clear though, I’m not defending Roberts comment, and agree with billys subsequent comment.
That’s an interesting viewpoint, @Robert_Hodge.
I don’t think I’d ever want to abdicate responsibility for my community in the way you suggest, though I’d want to be respectful of local mores.
In the UK, I’ve always felt my community benefited from people who, coming from another country, wanted to be part of it. My community isn’t based on skin colour, or politics, or faith, but on location and solidarité. I hope.
I think that a new comer being involved in community life is a good thing, and that this is also true for new comers who are foreigners. Both sides can learn a lot from the exchanges that take place. I certainly did during the 4 years that I was the President of one of our village Associations. A serious illness put an end to that, but now that I am recovered I have been able to resume Association activities.
On the other hand, as a foreigner, I don’t feel qualified to be able to vote in local elections. By that I mean that I simply don’t approach life in the way that French people do. I don’t have a lifelong knowledge of French ways and customs, and thus I don’t think it is my place as a ‘Third Country National’ to be voting for or against things which I feel it is more appropriate for French people to decide.
As an aside, the people of this village seem to have decided that the ruling group is the ruling group, which is no doubt why there is only ever 1 list to vote for. So whether an individual goes to vote or not is really just purely academic.
Last time around it was about 650 votes for the ruling list, and around 460 votes ‘blanche’. I wonder what will happen if the votes ‘blanche’ ever become the majority.
As a non French person I would expect the ‘blanchistes’ to form an alternative list.
Why they do not do so is something that as an Englishman I do not understand. Just one of so many things that I do not understand, and that lack of understanding makes me unqualified to vote in my view.
It could well be that you don’t have experience of what goes on at local council meetings.
Our Mairie encourages the public to attend
(although not allowed to speak unless specifically invited to do so).
In fact, since Covid, when the council chose to use the SdFetes instead of the Mairie to house the monthly council meetings … more of the public attend than ever before.
Matters which affect the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants, are discussed
Fascinating stuff… which affects all, no matter what nationality…
Not particularly associated with lifelong ways and customs… more on how to manage local life so that everyone is happy (or as happy as may be, if it’s something inflicted on us by Government )
Basically, the Maire presents something… gives the general outline… general discussion follows (sometimes quite heated)…
Various proposals are put forward, amendments discussed
The more proposals, the better… for the outcome will affect everyone.
Votes are taken (secret or not)
Sometimes there’s in impasse… to be discussed at a later meeting…
Sometimes it’s straightforward…
Always interesting though.
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It’s good that you are allowed in Stella, I did attend meetings in the early days but assumed, with no real basis for doing so, that when I was disenfranchised it would not be permitted, and I didn’t want to test it in case it caused embarrassement to them.
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Selon l’article L.2121-18, les séances du conseil municipal sont publiques. Il s’agit là d’un principe général qui garantit aux citoyens le droit d’être informés des décisions de leurs représentants, mais également de connaître des débats qui y concourent. Ce libre accès est autorisé à toute personne sous réserve qu’elle adopte une attitude passive.
A défaut, le conseil municipal pourrait décider de se réunir à huis clos.
All should be welcome, although if it’s not the norme in one’s own area… a word beforehand might be appreciated… so that a chair can be made available…
If a meeting is to be “behind closed doors”… it should be so-marked on the Announcement published beforehand…
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