You started a great run here! Well done - odd and sad though that the voices raised against are all from the "upper" house - unelected and with no right to govern. However - where is the democracy of the elected chamber reflecting on this change. I guess the opinion polls in favour have rather taken the wind out of the political discussion for the lower house - so the dear OAPs in frocks can rule. Bless them - but a cap here would be a good idea too - say 100 - not 800+ - would save a lot of money too
It wasn't actually me who mentioned it!
I said contraception. And i stand by it.
My point being that if someone claims benefits then those benefits shouldn't be increased because they decide to have children they can't pay for.
I also think that claimants should be drug tested if they have prior convictions for drugs.
Best not mentioned, even in jest, then isn't it?
However, it still reflects views held by Paddy Ashdown and the Bishops, so tell us we are wrong to have raised the point. I am sure Andrew, Catharine and I will happily take you on there. Have a good night anyway, but don't get bad dreams trying to outsmart the happy to stay at home parents!
Andy, that's a very derogatory remark!!
Just because you have a different opinion to someone else doesn't mean you or they are a 'better person', it merely means you have a different opinion.
The whole political angle was bound to cause disagreements, i presume that was the reason for it.
Brian, Sterilization was never a serious or viable option, but working first for welfare benefits then as a police officer based on a deprived ward for years opens your eyes to many things, when you have arrested 3 generation of the same family repeatedly for petty crimes, all making a career out of claiming every benefit possible, it tends to make you rather cynical. These are the type of people who need their benefits changing.
There's only so much money to go around and if there was less of the above types getting so much benefit then there would be more to pay for those who actually need it.
I, amongst others, did indeed say that if you mean me, but I think Catharine did before me, there is a choice beyond...
I joined the freshers debating society in Cambridge in 1966, I was still in a debating society in 2004 when we left. The society took some very famous people apart and that included such people as Tony Giddens. Only Noam Chomsky ever came out 100% unscathed. I wonder if Catharine did any of the Oxford ones, they are equally tenacious. So call it practice and stamina, no more than that. Then, of course, I am a wee Scot and we are supposedly as stubborn as mules!
I don't know how you continue to debate with some of these people Brian, you have more of a stomach for it than I have. I admire you stance
It has gone into too many poor me stories about things that were and are not of today and OUR children NOW, so there I must agree a potentially good question gone stale and very disappointing.
Yup - I agree and am with Andy and Nick's last comments ( re the devil is in the detail)
A pity that what could have been an enlightening discussion got dragged down into the " I work therefore my kids are better than yours" mire. Along of course, with the " it were never like that in my day" group and the "single mothers are either A) saints or B) sluts" brigade.
All in all - a bit disappointing.
Cut it our guys. You know very well what the reality is. The right take everything from everybody irrespective of rich or poor, prefereably taking what is of value such as money. The left just shoot the rich and the right. And we shall continue to do so... But seriously, ALL European politics is now middle of the road gainsmanship. Point scoring is all they look for, not progress. I watch the French boradcast and they are boring compared to the public school chaos in Westminster. For real debates look at the Bundestag where people think Angela is walking over Europe, like heck, she is under the strict eye of the entire house. Their debates are businesslike and heavy. For all of that, all centrist politicians with their own prestige at heart and gainsmanship their game. Cameron is becoming a bit to the right expert in saying as much nothing as possible to gain points but chage very little that does not bring in a few bob for his banker puppet string pullers just out of camera shot. Being frivolous am I, think about it. All that money saving in each country you can think of and the austerity is helping nobody, but I guess we expect that, yet the people with the real filthy lucre are getting richer by the second. Usually with a bonus at the end of each year as well. And here we are arguing about the relative handful of people who get large benefit payouts in a country we no longer live in!
There was a BUT, read the small print and not listen to extracts from the speech or press versions.
Paddy Pantsdown, as President of UNICEF, made that very clear in his objection to the bill. The Bishops spat blood on that point and there are a few Tories in the HoC related to them who might be under orders next time round...
Sandra your situation mirrors my own 1987 i was left a single parent family with two children at primary school no help other than an extra £1 on the family allowance i managed to keep our heads above water and pay the mortgage luckily i had an understanding employer i have never earned the money that is being payed out on benefits even as a highly skilled engineer with a string of qualifications i would have had to work over 60 hours a week to achieve £35k when i finished last year
on the news last night there was a single parent mother who was getting £28k she would love to work but if she got a job paying £30k after tax and everything else she would be on less than benefits so obviously you can get a higher standard of living by not working
I totally agree - although I do think even this 'cap' is too high !!!! 26,000 ???? Try living on a UK state pension ..... When I was 40 my husband left, with me to bring up my daughter who was then aged 6, as a single parent. I had to move from the South of England to the Midlands, so I could afford to buy a house - In the 1980's single parents were much maligned and most things were blamed on them, and not then on immigrants! With a full time job in the NHS, I earned the princely sum of 11,000 - had to run an old car because of unsocial hours at work - had to farm my daughter out to friends and relatives in the holidays and for 'teacher training' days - sometimes I just had 20 pounds left for our food for the week.
BUT we managed - no holidays, not many treats, difficult to save anything let alone pay the bills, school uniforms, trips, dinners, parties, etc ...but my daughter went to University - because of our situation the fees were waived, but she still struggles to pay her student loan - I helped pay the rent, the overdraft, the food, etc whilst she lived in rented accommodation in her University town - I don't begrudge it, she was given her chance, and, despite being from a stigmatised single parent family, she has a 2.1 in Law and an MSc in Criminology and a good job. Unfortunately she no longer speaks to me (but I am glad I gave her the chance in life ! ) My only regret now is that I cannot help her onto the housing ladder by paying a deposit for a house, etc !
No one in our family has ever claimed benefits - although I have heard people refer to even the State Pension as a benefit handout !!! I don;t think so - from my meagre salary, I had to pay a lot each month for the pension (I do get a small NHS pension ---- not 'gold plated' as the papers would have us believe !) - and I do not receive the Winter Fuel allowance as I left the UK before I qualified.
I know of no one personally who receives any state 'benefits' but really do believe Mr. Bevan would turn in his grave if he could see what the welfare state has turned into - it should still be regarded simply as a safety net - although, I realise, having said that, that with the state of the economy in the UK anyone probably over 50 and youngsters who have been made redundant, with more jobs lost each day, and who cannot, through no fault of their own, find another job, need to be helped in some way. It's all very well the government saying 'work until you are 70' - but where are people to find this work ?? Perhaps the UK should take the lead and ask people to work on community projects, etc - as in Japan, when old people were put to work mowing municipal parks and even grass verges, in order to keep receiving their pensions !! Watch this space - I may turn up on a mower in your vicinity ! (dangerous lady at work !)
In cases where people are genuinely disabled or unable to work for a medical reason, then yes, of course they should be helped, and the elderly who are sadly neglected and no longer are able to access free care if they require it - I am sure any civilised society would give assistance in these cases.
but it does make my blood boil when I read about cases of foreigners who have never worked or paid into the UK systems, either NI or tax, etc receiving enormous benefits, better housing, free medical care, etc. etc.
There - I have got that out of my system !
Seems reasonable to me. My 30 year old son though he runs a well regarded film and book review blog, hasn't had a reasonable job for several years. I get a bit annoyed when he pops up on FB describing his weekend of take-aways, visits to the pub and consumption of alcohol. He does go apply for a large number of jobs but I think he, and others like him, should be doing voluntary work as well. Several other young members of the family seem to exist very well off the state and they all have laptops, 50" plasma screen and the latest mobile. The major expense is somewhere to live which the state provides for. There is a transitional period of a year but that is more than you get if you are made redundant. One of the problems in the UK is that there is a great reluctance to move to another area to get a new job - just think of the problem the BBC is having in moving people out of Loandon to Salford Quay.
Grumpy old man bit-wasn't like that in my day. Made all my own furniture and we didn't have a TV for the first 2 years of our married life. Wedding present was a cooker.
Arrived back laden with lots of great vegies and fruits.
You are all still debating....It will continue.
Good news for me is that my friends have completed the sale of their
house and are now in France...EXCITED and delighted.
Good point Andy, and spot on. As with all things the devil is in the detail. That's why the Lords didn't like it, too many children could get caught in the badly penned legislation.
Ahh, at last Glen the real right wing persona can stand it no more, and the real truth of your post spills out.
When in doubt blame the "others", it's what right wingers do best.
Worth every penny!