Just an observation, he spent years negotiating with a country whose population demanded ‘control over their borders’ and he now wants the same thing for France.
I think The Guardian story is a little misleading in this respect - indeed I think The Guardian like most UK media often misses the nuances of French politics by imposing an anglo-saxon political spectrum on it (or assuming what goes on in Paris is all there is to ‘France’).
I first came across Barnier when he was the EU Internal Market Commissioner in the noughties - I never really knew him but did find myself in a few meetings with him - and good friends of mine did work closely with him. I’m sure he was a genuine enthusiast for the ‘social economy’ (using business models and methods but for common benefits, not private gain). This is not exclusively associated with the left (the old Liberal Party had a long association with employee-ownership; Andy Street, a current Tory Mayor, worked for the employee-owned John Lewis Partnership) BUT it would certainly not figure as part of anglo-saxon ‘right-wing’ ideology.
Also there are subtle differences between the way right-wing Brits use the term ‘immigration’ and the way it’s used in Europe - where generally it does not refer to ‘free movement’ within the single market, but only to immigration from without…
He may have changed, but certainly 10 years or so ago I would put Barnier firmly in the centre of the anglo-saxon political spectrum - perhaps on the left of the Republicans here? - but it’s @Fred1’s take on this we really need.
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Sorry Marijkeh - I missed your post while writing mine - but precisely! The word ‘immigration’ is subtly different in meaning in anglo-saxon and euro-English.
In part the confusion of free-movement and immigration was a deliberate tactic of the UK Euro-sceptics, wasn’t it?
The European perspective - which is correct but which the ‘Remain’ campaign never succeeded in getting across - is that free movement of labour is not an optional political add-on to the single market, but integral to its working. Free markets (free movement of business and capital) are not logically possible without free movement of labour, and indeed common employment and environmental standards, because investment will simply flow to cheap production locations. Free movement of labour eventually curtails this, because people can also move to places with higher standards.
It’s just another example of how irrational the brexit case was even in its own terms!
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I suppose the truth is that it doesn’t really matter what Left-wing is, because the Left is increasingly irrelevant to most people. In France, it’s so fragmented that they can’t even manage a unifying leader; in the US there is no such thing; and in the UK, it is disappearing up its own rear end. “We won the argument”, said Corbyn, but no-one outside the party even heard it.
I was hopeful when Starmer was elected, because it seemed that at least some in the party could still hear, faintly, the voice of reason, and at least Starmer seems reluctant to engage in the nutty and fashionable stuff (gender politics, BLM, statue-toppling) which normal people find so off-putting, but I can’t see them re-establishing themselves as a reasonable alternative in time for the next election.
Maybe a substantial proportion of them don’t actually want to win an election. That would certainly explain the earlier obsession with Corbyn, the anti-Semitism, support for Palestine come-what may, support for the IRA.
And Brexiteers and Remainers are still fighting a battle that is over. We might rejoin the EU, but (a) it will not be within 20 years and (b) it will be a very different organisation if we do. I think Labour is probably wise in avoiding getting embroiled in what is probably a vote-loser. Certainly the Remainers would be better saving their energy for a useful and winnable battle!
Politics is in a very sad state globally, with the exception of New Zealand.
Doesn’t that say something!
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are you saying that isolationism is the way to go?
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I find all the things you have mixed up quite an eye opener but I will save my energy for more useful battles.
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A National Front poster from 1970s, those policies look familiar - shows how far the Tories have moved (or was this always the barely hidden agenda!)
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All entirely reasonable policies.
And no, I never supported the NF/BNP. Not even before their followers started placing bombs in London.
Stop Immigration is not working well
Reject Common Market is not working well
Many studies suggest Capital Punishment does not prevent crime
Make Britain Great Again - hmmm
Scrap Overseas Aid - why?
Rebuild Armed Services - that same party has been reducing whilst stating the opposite.
Reasonable policies - I would beg to differ.
I didn’t say that any of those policies had actually been implemented in a sensible manner.
How could they be implemented better - and what result would you want to see if implemented perfectly?
That will change if sheep get the right to vote 
@almondbiscuit If you have an argument to put forward, please do so: the problem - at least since Blair left - is that the Left spends all its time looking inwards and not troubling to engage in discussion with anybody other than itself. That’s probably why it’s in the mess it is!
Point taken about fighting internal battles, not that I would describe Blair as left wing.
You made some blanket statements in your last post. In order to respond thoroughly and back up all my arguments I would need to spend time looking up references and links to support my arguments. I’m not on holiday nor retired and can’t right now. Anyway maybe keener minds than mind can interject.
One thing I will say though, you think the left is in a mess? The right has warped into a grotesque version of itself (i.e. fascist). All those chickens will sadly come home to roost.
Yep they will blame the left but they are excellent at blaming other people -introspection less so.
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Yes you’re right (as usual) Marijkeh - and I’d add that (as I have said before) what’s happening in the UK Labour Party currently is off-topic. The terms left and right are 230-odd years old! It’s not really possible to understand ‘exactly what is Right or Left Wing’ without a broad historical and geographic perspective.
In this broad perspective, the right has lots of mini-victories - of course it does, it is the name we give to the powerful and wealthy - but in the end the right finds that it can’t permanently reverse the less frequent, but more decisive gains of the left. Once you end slavery, throw out the colonialists, give women the vote, introduce universal free state education, create the welfare state, etc, etc - it’s very hard to reverse these gains. It turns out the people like them! Behind this history is the fact that far from being ‘irrelevant to most people’, the left actually reflects most people’s real values: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité - freedom from oppression, and to achieve your full potential regardless of wealth; social justice and greater equality for all; and solidarity - a caring and considerate society.
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Who are the “they” who will blame the Left? The Right? I don’t think they need to, though the print media are good at it.
Poor old Starmer has an ocean-going liner to turn around and I doubt he has time before the next election. Labour’s vote plummeted in all sorts of places it shouldn’t have Results of the 2019 General Election - BBC News because Corbyn - well, because Corbyn.
Labour should be engaging with people - like the Brexiteers did (whether or not you share the view that it was cynical manipulation) so successfully - and talking about immigration and why it’s inevitable and necessary; what they are going to do to address wage inequality; how they are going to improve life chances for under-privileged or left-behind groups like white working-class boys; globalisation and how they will ensure jobs for all.
However you characterise the Right, it’s winning elections and it looks like it will keep on doing so.
@Geof_Cox, I’m sorry but that just sounds like whistling in the dark to keep your spirits up.
For example, the ending of slavery in the UK can’t have been a victory of the Left, because of the timing; in fact, the campaign which led to this (the Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade) was a bunch of Anglicans and Quakers, who must have been part of the “intrinsically irrational” Right, “relying inevitably on ‘authority’ (of rank or might), on superstition/religion …” - as you pointed out above at 65.
If society is progressing inevitably towards being more caring and considerate, what about the US, who think you’re some sort of damn Commie for advocating anything resembling free healthcare for all? China? Russia?
Who are the print media if not the right-wing? I’ve said it before so it’s becoming a little bit boring I am sure but even the Guardian are liberal and not very left wing.
Sorry, that’s what I meant - maybe I didn’t express it very well.
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