You do know we Australians don't talk like that outside of Brit tv shows?
Sorry, but the picture of her saying: 'A'right cobba' to a paying guest creases me.
I agree, Sharon. The French are so demanding and I guess we may say, difficult. I'm American and in large cities like NYC and LA, we're just happy when we can communicate and understand each other when it comes to working with non-native speakers. However, I did know someone who came to LA from Independence, Missouri (a suburb of Kansas City where there is a particular accent) to try to work and no one wanted to work with him because of his accent... So, this kind of discrimination seems to be everywhere but the French are especially difficult. It's like I can't get French people to open their mouths to speak English because they have so many complexes about making a mistake. It's inherent in their education and culture that one must somehow miraculously speak a language perfectly or just not at all. I wish the French could step out of their culture into the rest of the Occidental world and see what's really going on.
I definitely sympathize with your husband's plight. I speak French like a near-native and it's very hard. I'm working my way up the ladder in the university system and plan to eventually go back to the States where I know my experience, education and other qualities are much more appreciated.
My thoughts exactly, Stuart! Perhaps I do understand the French way of doing things, but I certainly don't agree with them all and I think that is where Anglos and Francos tend to butt heads. We Anglos tend to be direct and to the point and the Francos love to do a song and a dance and we're still left wondering if there was a point to it all in the somewhere......
"sore point" Chris, we have a qualified languages teacher in the family, an anglophone at that - me! but no one asked me what I thought - sis in law was just pleased to get her on a course in Toulouse (at huge cost!) at a good school who did this language exchange with Oz! Saw her yesterday and she didn't dare speak to me in English and I didn't want to embarasse her by doing so although nobody would have known if she came out with a load of rubbish or not :-D
John, I understand perfectly what you are saying, my husband has been offered the job, we start researching places to rent near Paris etc, he has even been given a start date and then the contract fails to arrive - it starts getting a little too near to the original start date so the date is moved along for another couple of weeks - all plausible reasons/excuses given and then all of a sudden the job falls through before the contract has arrived. When he's pressed the agents or the person that contacted him for the position, finally there is an admission that they have found someone french! Ben thanks for your input, very interesting!
@Chris/Brian it's not cavalier it's just not an issue (with the rest of europe) in his industry - but actually he does speak some german and his french is fairly fluent!
Croiky, y'mean she went to Oz to learn ENGLISH???????? Bloody hell mate, bet she can say g'day okay then?
Oh how true, well written Alexander. Why do we Brits ALWAYS expect "foreigners" to speak our language I wonder?
Robert even that doesnt always work i worked for a German company based in the uk i could have gone anywhere in the world but they wanted me in France the French didnt, as stated previously the guy in Toulouse said he would give the job to a Frenchman before me the fact that there wasnt a Frenchman within commuting distance that could do the job had no bearing on the matter i honestly believe they look after their own and i applaude them in that
Hi Sharon - Has your OH tried any internet based businesses where the language seems to be dominated by English. We have embarked on one with considerable success. No need to travel and no need to be "hired" by anyone who can criticise your level of French language skills!!! Just a thought.
It's very much a cat among the dogs mentality: the French are more comfortable with their own. It is parochial.
The only thing I can suggest is to find the right company, one that is global.
Agree Chris. I worked on a kind of 'share' between the UK and Germany for a long time because they had the project that gave me access to what I was doing and where I wanted to work and my university had no objection to passing on parts of my funding for them to adminster whilst I was with them. I needed German, which I had so no problem, whereby quite ironically we were working in South America and I had to get my handful of words to grow into competent use of Spanish but they never worried about that because we were based in Berlin.
Not sure Ian. The university and grand ecole thing is not quite as closed as you make it. I have worked with French academics in the past, all now retired and myself too old to take an academic post but with a quite imperfect French I have been tempted some years ago. My wife, who is not French, has applied for jobs here and even been on a short list. She works together with Institut national d'études démographiques (INED) and SciencePo people, albeit not generating income from it but nonetheless. She is, in many respects, far better qualified, has publications in several languages which they do not (including a book published by l'Harmattan in Paris), her reputation is international which very few French academics can claim. In conversations I have taken part in many of them express a view that the academic world open up and attract in people from other countries and lead the way in making France more international. So I do not at all believe the role you believe they play is quite like that. Yes, it means the incomers must have French and improve it if it is not of the highest standard, but then I never experienced academics without English getting a job in a British university.
In the contemporary world unfortunately personality and performance are standards that rate above CV and also surprise me. Not just here but across the Channel and in other countries I know. The people with those qualities are cheaper to hire and driven by ambition to get higher up the career ladders and earn top salaries so they are often harder workers and that is what everybody is now putting before proven quality. I am not sure that it is always beneficial for employers, but then I am not looking for a job, so what do I really know?
Because it's France! They are (rightly) very proud of their language, and (rightly) expect us to learn it if we wish to live and work in their Country. Working all over Europe with only English is a bit Cavalier don't you think?
Lack of personality and attitude during an interview I can understand but in my case the guys mind was made up before I even left the uk in fact I was told at 8am one morning during a phone call still in my house in Stoke on Trent, the European manager in Paris when I told of this didn’t seem best pleased but obviously the decision had been made and would not overrule he then asked if I wanted to go to Bordeaux but by then I and the uk team were fed up with the attitude, what upset everyone in the uk we had just done the same in reverse a guys wife was transferred to the uk by her company which left him with a problem to help him out we gave him a job and transferred him
While I do not have the definitive answer either, I can only relate my own experiences. I have been here for 3 years now and am an autoentrpreneur. My wife is French and I am Canadian (Anglophone) with some French. Meaning, I can get by conversationally but not in a business environment. I have been searching for a full time salaried position here in France since I arrived. I became an autoentrepreneur because I had no choice. If I wanted to get some small contract work - it was the only way. That said; while I agree with most of the the other comments I don't think language is the only barrier to entry. I think a couple of other factors come into play:
- We are "etrangers" in this country and I don't think the French are very welcoming in this regard. They are polite, pleasant and even friendly except when you want a position that could be held by one of them.
- If you didn't go to a Grand Ecole or even university here; I believe they are mistrustful of your academic background. AND Academics play an important role in getting a job here. While many of our friends (who are French) acknowledge that "job perfomance" is very important factor and should be one of the key measures to both winning a job and promotion. All agree that in the French culture, Academics continue to play a major role. I think we all know that just because you may be very bright academically; that is no guarantee of future performance. Yet, they cannot seem to break out of habit of relying on academics.
- My wife works for a large French company and to hear her tell me how promotions or new positions are filled is beyond me. You could have the best performance in the company but if your academic track record does not match your performance - forget it. Either the next person in terms of seniority or the person with a less than stellar performance record but great academic standard will probably get the new role or promotion. And, if you are an etranger...., need I say more?
I wish I could be more positive about job searching here in France. I think the French business community have their prejudices and outdated standards when hiring or promoting. It's too bad because I really like living here - the lifestyle can't be matched elsewhere. The balance between work and home is one of the reasons why I moved here. However, job search or contract work search here is not easy and I don't see their hiring/promotion practices changing any time soon. Plus as mentioned, the crisis is still upon us. I keep hearing all the time "C'est comme ca" - it does get tiresome.
There you go...., my view only!
My native born French husband, who is also fluent in English cannot find work in the Toulouse area either. During our five years of marriage, he has either been hired for jobs that never materialized or has spent weeks doing unpaid training to no avail…only two people picked out of twenty trained. He has earned very little money, and now employers are leery due to his splotchy job history. He is a writer, has his own media company, and does special web designs, so he is not likely to be hired as unskilled labor! In my view your OH is more likely to be hired here than mine!
Lack of personality and attitude during an interview I can understand but in my case the guys mind was made up before I even left the uk in fact I was told at 8am one morning during a phone call still in my house in Stoke on Trent, the European manager in Paris when I told him of this didn’t seem best pleased but obviously the decision had been made and would not overrule he then asked if I wanted to go to Bordeaux but by then I and the uk team were fed up with the attitude, what upset everyone in the uk we had just done the same in reverse a guys wife was transferred to the uk by her company which left him with a problem to help him out we gave him a job and transferred him
In the Anglo-Saxon world (a generalization I know, as for "the French etc.) one can boast his technical competences in his CV and spent hours of job-interviews on these subjects because they're considered to be very important.
For the French the technical qualifications are just on factor in the recruitment process. I have worked for several years as an HR-Director in France for the more technically oriented companies and have noticed that the French are particular but not an exception when it comes to recruiting a non-French.
In France (and the more southern countries for that matter) your personality and more precise the fact that you can fit into a team is of the utmost importance. Speaking French, behaving French etc. are the primary outward signs of that. And it is precisely in multinational companies that you need the combination between an open mind to the world and the shared values of your countrymen. For example under the international, smooth skin of Airbus you will find an ongoing struggle between the nations participating in that project for a bit of dominance in their fields of expertise. So why would the French faction hire a non-French when (nearly) equal skills are available in a French candidate?
So yes, your OH can have a triple-A+ interview on his technical capacities but finally being turned down for his lack of French language skills. And to make things worse, the language skills argument is frequently used to avoid uncomfortable discussions about the real reasons for turning down a candidate.
There is no single language that guarantees a job, sorry......
for the record, my brother in law recently had a hotel built and even before it opened he went out of his way to employ at least one member of staff who speaks english (as he doesn't) and my nièce has just come back from a year in Australia to learn English so whe can work in the hotel.