So true Mark, you absolutely have to believe in what you're selling! That's why I left, as software wasn't really floating my boat!
By the way, I have seen you on the DVN and I know you are a very nice man. You're always helpful and proactive. There are plenty of "bad" people around, but stick to your guns as you are appreciated by the ones who count.
Jane, I don't think that Brian meant it that way but I'm sure he will clarify. I could not effectively sell an item which I did not like. That does not make that item a bad one, just one that is not to my personal taste. I think sales people are able to be more objective which is not the same as dishonest. I look at some of those DFS sofas on the telly & would rather sit on wooden crates than have some of those designs in my house but a true salesman for DFS cannot tell a customer that "buying this sofa will make your house look like a cheapThai brothel" even if that is the thinking. Sales training would surely kick in & the customer informed that it is "comfortable" & "only fourninenine" (I've yet to discover what that actually means). I would also use Clarice Cliff pottery as a target for my air rifle but someone else would actually PAY for it! Now, that's good salemanship!
Jane, no reflection on you or anybody else. It is simply that I have the talent whereby if something is worth €10, is priced at €10 and should be nothing else. If I manage to get €6 I am doing extremely well.
In that sense it would not be worth my while trying to sell anything, let alone do anything dishonest. In my days of desperation for income I tried selling part time. I was a monumental failure, seriously never sold one thing for the people who I was working for. I leave it to people like you who can, all the better that you are honest as well.
That's fair, Kent, the garage may have missed the break & it was another 4 months before the fault showed up. I've yet to meet a mechanic with a "third eye"! You were not charged something you did not have so I think you were treated fairly which you appreciated by treating them faily in return.
We do sometimes have problems with those who feel that, just because you did a repair on their car, in the process you must have caused the new problem they might now have - since you fitted new wiper blades the car pulls to the left- but this is where straightforward honesty comes in.
Brian Milne, I'm incensed by your comment (or have I misunderstood?)
"I am incapable of salesmanship so cannot and will not cheat people myself, mis-sell or effectively steal. "
This statement implies that a salesman (or woman) will by default cheat, mis-sell or effectively steal!
I AM capable of sales. I did it professionally for 16 years, starting in telesales and ending in selling software deals worth millions. I worked honestly and with integrity and I was very successful at it because of this! Sales people do carry a stigma unfortunately, but that has never actually annoyed me, until now!
One has to be reasonable in one’s expectations I think. As an example: my camshaft belt snapped, quite handily, right outside the garage in our local town. It was my fault for ignoring it for so long; I knew it was overdue. But I wasn’t going anywhere. I popped across the road and told the man to take it in and fix it. It inevitably broke some cam-follower/rockers too; it is not unusual to get other damage around the camshaft when a belt breaks.
He fixed it all and I was back on the road.
Four months later I broke down again and found that the camshaft was snapped near the end. It is easily arguable that it was broken at the time when the belt snapped and that it was only the gritty, broken, jagged edges that kept it together for so long but, as the break wasn’t visible but hidden inside a bearing, I could see how the mechanic might have missed it. I also could not afford to pay to have it repaired again so I did it myself. I did tell the garage owner when I went to ask to borrow his workshop manual. He didn’t say anything but he was very helpful and friendly.
My point is that, as I have worked as a mechanic myself, I understand that these things can happen, even whilst trying to do your best - so I gave them the benefit-of-the-doubt instead of saying, “You’re responsible for this and I want it fixed for free.” I thought that would be unreasonable after four months.
Nobody’s perfect.
Glen, the same applies to the motor trade! The trouble is I can fully understand why. So many garages mis-diagnose faults so fit unnecessary parts. When the same fault recurs there is never a suggestion that the customer will be credited for the wrong work, instead they just carry on fitting new parts until the fault goes away! I have a car here which the previous owner spent 8000 euros on with a main dealer trying to get a fuel injection problem fixed. the fault was never found...
I can live with "expensive" but when it is combined with "charged for work not done" I really get upset! If my sister had signed a devis or other document authorising this work perhaps the builder would have a point but she became confused by part of the job being done on "daywork" & later in the same letter the word "labour" followed by "4620 euros". This was not explained so very difficult to work out just how much the job would have cost - not what you need if working to a budget!
btw - he was also formerly a shoe repairer, and one of the oldest cobbler jokes is: a man goes back to the town in which he grew up - he finds an old ticket in his pocket and remembers it was for a pair of shoes he took in 15 years earlier to be repaired. When he walks down the street, he sees that the old shop is still there, and still open. He pops his head inside and sees the same cobbler, who calls out a cheery hello. So he takes the ticket and asks him - would you by any chance still have my shoes after all these years? The cobbler looks on the shelves and says - yes, I do. They'll be ready in half an hour.
I agree with you Kent. My hubby is a carpenter/furniture maker and also does light building repairs and jobs noone else will touch.
Sometimes the problem is that people want too many options before choosing (when there are only one or two - or even none!), and once they have chosen or agreed, expect you to drop everything else you have on the go to get their job done - that is after you have explained you will start the job in May and it's still March. Or, while you're doing the job, call you daily to find out if you are finished yet, or hover over your shoulder so you can't really work. Preparation drawings also take a lot of time if it's for one-off pieces.
They don't see all the extra trips to check out supplies, order and pick up supplies, phone calls to timber suppliers, going to the brico shop and going back because what you saw in stock last week was no longer there....
It can be frustrating when people don't understand delays on the part of glass, wood, or other suppliers too. They seem to think you are trying to diddle them out of something.
I had wondered about adding a line into the devis to say that it is agreed work would start on or before x date - but I'm hesitating in case it could turn around and bite us in the bum?
My sympathies, Glen.
I’d intended to continue working for a while yet but packed it in after a customer accused me of being too dear. I like to do a job on the basis of how I would do it if I was doing it for myself, and I believe in the maxim, “if a job’s worth doing, it’s worth doing well”. I do good work, with care and attention to detail.
This particular customer wanted quite a lot of custom work doing to replace some rather ikky temporary work her late husband had done. All that had to be ripped back to basics before I could start. I was asked to re-use some old pieces of oak and rout and inset tiles into it. There was tiling of the worktop with insetting some tiles of a slightly different size, plus a new sink, plus new plumbing, plus joining into the original splash-back and making good, plus a few odd repairs elsewhere in the house I kept getting asked to do whilst I was handy and on-site...
As a friendly gesture and in sympathy for the recent loss of her husband, I did it all for 10€ per hr, any materials at cost and didn’t include any travelling even though it was 30km each way plus brico trips in a 3½tonne van.
When she said she thought it was too dear, I was shocked and indignant and said, “If that’s what you think, then don’t pay me. Keep your money” And I left. She did pay. Since she owned 3 houses and had over a million in the bank, I don’t think it was a problem - but we haven’t spoken since.
Really p***ed me off! It was a nice job and her attitude left me wondering, “Why do I bother?”
Builders, etc get a bad name, it seems - but it’s not all one sided; some customers haven’t a clue what goes into a job.
Yeah Glen, it's a stigma that seems without rhyme or reason. My father (who I didn't like or get on with, so no way I'm making him out as something he wasn't) and his partner were straight as a die. Len, the partner, was a very qualified builder for those days and kept on learning until he retired in his late 60s. But no matter what they did, like fixing other builders' messes and so on, they were always hallmarked with being 'builders' as if that word automatically meant bodge and run.
In fact, think about it really, and it's the people who use builders who try to cut corners by using cowboys who make it that way. In other words, they're not even honest to themselves.
I'll no doubt be criticised for the following comments, but have intended to post this for some time!
After nearly 5 years as GM of a large estate in Nomandy, I came to the conclusion that many British companies set up in the North of France (this also applies to the Cote d'Azur) are only there to screw other Brits - this is NOT a misconception, it's a reality, sad as it may sound. Paperwork insufficient, lack of legalities under French employment laws, lack of proper insurance, importation of supplies from the UK as expensive shipping costs, when available off the shelf locally at half the price (mostly due to a complete lack of knowledge of written or spoken French), incapacity to know how a devis works, dodgy invoicing and the list goes on! In the end I found the French easier to deal with, although clearly there were always some who'd like to try it on and potentially take advantage!
If we're talking about honesty, my experience was the Brits were as unscrupulous in business affaire as the French are purported to be!!
My golden rule was always three different estimates, with time lines, supply costings, legally employed workers, insurance docs and bank recommendations - and if possible recommendations from other satisfied customers.
Now, I'll sit back and take the flak - I can handle it! Have a nice day everyone;
Tell your sister to contact the local Gendarmerie, i'ts theft - pure and simple.
Mark I am interested in getting you to keep an eye open for a car for me- how do we take this "Offline" - hate that term in a business context
Steve
I HATE FALSE claims.
Insurance wise and in any other way.
Do things wright or not at all.
ALWAYS be ready to admit being in the wrong and say sorry when it is needed.
These are factors relating to a nice person.
I was with one of the large pension funds that went down. Like many other people I had been persuaded that because of my career choice I would have negligible little pension so take out a private one. The adviser at bank X, now 'absorbed' long since into one of the big UK banks suggested three or four, I looked and chose. Whoops.
When rumours began to circulate I contacted the fund. The person on the phone said there were rumours about many pensions and insurances, nothing to worry about. He assured me that even if a few pounds were wiped off the company's value the contract they had with me assured me receiving a minimum of X. Relieved I ended the call, said to my OH something about the media causing havoc and mayhem as usual and that was that. Well within 48 hours it had gone bottom up, within a few more days the world heard it was totally broke. They had been holding off the receivers and so on for months.
Why did the man on the phone not do something more conciliatory. The truth is preferable but perhaps not always best. Like you Mark, honesty and you Jane, integrity are all I want. I am incapable of salesmanship so cannot and will not cheat people myself, mis-sell or effectively steal. If absolute truth needs to be avoided for good reason I understand and accept that, prefer not to do it myself. It seems that integrity is not worth much any longer.
Or might it really be: more fool me?
Hi Pamela,
Our daughter and son-in-law both work in the insurance world and we are well aware that false claims raise our premiums. You only have to see the effect that the number of false whip lash claims are having on car insurance in the UK.
We have just made a claim for a fuite caused by faulty workmanship at the time of installation and which dripped onto our very expensive coffee table books in our gite. Even though my husband sent them 'photos of the books and their prices, we have only been offered 50 euros and we have new for old in our policy.
I just wonder who is the 'thief' in a situation like that?
agree, Jane, but I think some people have been 'bitten' - and normally it's either a car salesman, shoe salesman, or a rogue contractor who took off with money before doing a job, or didn't finish the job. We've been 'done' in one of the above cases. The old saying 'caveat emptor' really applies and people are more cautious if they've already been stung once. Another saying also applies - 'judge not lest ye be judged'.
And yes, I used to work for an insurance company and people don't seem to realise that fraudulent claims actually raise our premium payments.
Mark, like you my personal integrity is very important to me. I really hate being lumped into the same category as those who are not so concerned.
I am a customer, not a thief. I do not make fraudulent insurance claims. If I say I will do something, I do it, or if circumstances beyond my control prevent it, I apologise and try to make restitution.
I recognise that not all people are like me, but at least I would like commercial concerns to start from the premise that I am honest and not otherwise.