Sandy, when the UK joined the EEC/EU it's economy was a basket case. Within the EEC/EU the UK has prospered. What leads you to believe that outside the EU the UK's economy won't falter again? I believe we are just seeing start of such a decline. The EU needs reform and the UK could have been a catalyst for and a significant contributor to that reform but just running away is madness IMO. In fact, I don't think it will happen, a fudge will emerge.
@ Sandy - Russian roulette with your future here in France, not the UK's future, although in both cases much will be decided in what's negotiated. It could mean you (and others) having to leave France if you can't jump through whatever hoops are put in place (although I think the chance of that is slim provided the UK accepts free movement of people there too). I don't think many have grasped the fact that it'll probebly cost just as much to have access to the club but with no aid in return or a say in how things are run or the rules that are laid down. I think people have been lead down the garden path if they think the UK can cherry pick what it wants from the UK and leave the rest i.e. access to the european market but no freedom of movement/immigration. As you say, time will tell, I just hope it works out OK.
You do confuse me Hilary. You're staying France so you will contnue to be ruled by the "deeply flawed "family'"".
I absolutely agree Andrew.
Hilary, could you let us know exactly which basic freedoms you have had to give up? Do you think that the UK leaving the EU stops the UK being in Europe? What happens in Europe politically will always affect the UK...including the migration crisis.
Anybody actually been to Spain recently? We always hear how poor & difficult life is since the financial crisis but my recent visits to northen Spain have revealed towns that are thriving, busy & clean, with a good infrastructure & transport system, a good "cafe" culture & a generally upbeat lifestyle. Then we look at a UK town...
I was in Italy last week and found exactly same Mark.
Call me mad but I don't really see what Putin is doing wrong. NATO is on his doorstep. The Ukraine joining NATO (which is what the US wanted) would have threatened Russia and taking back the Crimea (and his naval base) is no different. as far as I can see, to Kennedy's stand off over the Bay of Pigs. It also looks to me, despite Western bias in all our news sources, that Putin has made a significant contribution to fighting ISIL? Would I want to live under him, probably not, but I don't think I have enough evidence to view Russia as the ogre the US (or maybe just the US arms industry) presents it to be. Remember, the idiot Bush's regime created the mess in the M/E that has been the breeding ground for ISIL? IMO, since the turn of the century the US has arguably caused more harm than big, bad Russia has.
And I am in France....south west near Libourne, Bergerac and it all looks bright and cheerful in
the bars and restaurants.
Yes, but the act of Brexit will make things better in the EU in terms of getting reforms...There is supposed to be a significant amount of the population in France and other EU countries, who are also dissaffected, who would like to see change. The Uk vote has made that more likely and if things begin to seriously unravel in the EU in the near future (10 yrs or so), then others may also drop out of the arrangement. I may not be living in the UK, but I do feel strongly that it will be better off 'out' and more able to control the immigration influx (essential for the size of the place and because of the 'pull' factor) and really to prevent a loss of identity & 'sovereignty'...
France and Germany will always come off better in the EU, than anyone else, being founder members...I am sure other EU states feel this too...
"Call me mad"
John, you're mad !!!
It's quite tricky to criticise Putin too much when you see his stance aganst ISIL etc. It's a pity Turkey decided to blow a Russian fighter plane out of the sky but i'm sure diplomatic liason will recover eventually. The main thing is to stand united against terrorism and conveniently 'forget' any ulterior motives or hidden agendas us coalition members may harbour...
The 'basic freedoms' I was referring to is the loss of the ability to veto things which we feel are detrimental to the UK..(which I have already spoken about and are gone into in detail in the aforementioned Toby Young 'Brexit Facts not Fiction' video...plus, 'Paxman in Brussels, Who Really Rules Us ?').
Yes, I agree we cannot be completely unaffected by what happens in Europe and other countries...in a crisis, there will always be some degree of 'knock on effect', but we have a better control over how much we allow ourselves to be affected...and how we are going to respond to that crisis...
I am a remainer so I agree - "oh look, pound's fallen, political parties in tatters, etc." And the UK hasn't even implimented Article 50 yet, let alone left!
If all this happens just because of what some think could happen in the future I dread to think what will actually happen if & when the UK does leave. Incidentally, I have just heard on the radio that Nissan is considering its options - I pointed out in another thread that the reason Nissan, Toyota & Honda build cars in the UK is to overcome EU import tarrifs which restricts the import of non EU built cars. If the UK becomes a non EU country the whole point of having assembly plants there goes away - along with thousands of jobs.
more able to control the immigration influx - only possible if the UK rejects freedom of movement which it can't as it's one of the four freedoms and a condition of getting the other three. We're back to this idea of cherry picking again, it just aint going to be like that...!
Not sure Frane and Germany are better off in any way, it is the UK that gets rebates and spoilt child status, even with that the UK has thrown it's rattle out of the pram!
But you wrote "freedoms" plural, the name only one which you personally do not have anyway, unless you are an MEP. Can you or another Brexiteer PLEASE acually come up with an EU rule which has proved to be detrimental to the average UK citizen?
Do you really think the UK will have better control - on its own? The new EU does not have to listen to or take in to account the wishes of a little island who does not want to be part of it. The UK will just have to take whatever cr*p is thrown at it & it can do nothing except put up shutters. Perhaps Trump will send across the wall builders' plans when they have finished the mexican one!
Britain in the EU, is like being a downtrodden woman, in a bad marriage. The guy has a good income, there is food on the table, etc. From the outside, to casual observers, it may not look too bad......who does she think she is, what is she complaining about ?...What they dont know is that he doesn't listen to her and has never really listened to her and has no intention of listening to her....The relationship is deeply unfulfilling and spirtually bankrupt and she realises that they actually have little in common and she wishes she had realised it sooner,then done something about it, but she didn't because her 'family' think she is 'mad' - and they have tried continually,to sap her confidence, by insinuating that she can't make it on her own and life will be 'so difficult' if they break up...She should not be silly enough to 'rock the boat', but 'turn a blind eye' to the fact that he spends money like water and can't account for what he has done with it..that he conspires with other family members and has got into bad company with some corporate bosses who are trying to take control of his business...which he is allowing to happen, behind everyone's back...and on top of that, he insists on holding lavish parties (that everyone has to come to) that cost a fortune, he's overpaying his workforce and he's drinking too much.....
and being outside the EU she may soon be sleeping on the streets...!
Or hanging around in seedy singles bars1
I remember reading somewhere "call me anything you like but don't call me early" :-)
in a crisis....where do we go Hillary?
To our family.....always to our family.
UK will no longer have a family.
And the bond which brought people together through the war
with the resitance and Englands great relationships.....this has been forgotten
or rejected as a scar of a time which was bad.
Yes we have worked all lives (still working) So this is where
we have the freedom to discuss all manner of things with
people we will never meet!
Having said that I had a really awful encounter with a
'striped member' almost 2 years ago and went on to meet him
sort of forgave him for reasons not discussed ......but never forgot
the incident. But I do know one or 2 members personally.
Let us hope that we can remain civil to each other.