None of whom (as far as I can see) make any claims to the effect that we are “still EU citizens” post Brexit. The 3Million aims to guard the interests of EU nationals in the UK so isn’t terribly relevant and the latest blog entry on the ThePeoplesChallenge website is from January this year - at which point, of course, UK nationals in the EU were EU citizens.
The WA states that during transition the EU treats the UK *as* *though* *it* *were* an EU member - quite different from it actually being a member state, which it is not.
EU citizenship is defined by Article 8 of the Maastricht Treaty which states:
That’s it, the only route to EU citizenship is to be a citizen of a member state, ergo since the UK is no longer a member state we are no longer EU citizens.
Thanks to the WA we can behave as though we are EU citizens during transition, including FoM - but we are not EU citizens.
And afterwards, as I said, there is no special “ex-EU citizen” category. We will just be Brits living in the EU (well, some of you will) - that will confer (per the WA) additional rights to those Brits who moved to the EU before the end of transition but that is all.
We are EU citizens until the end of this year. Have you any facts that prove otherwise?
Have you supported these organisations or others that are working to protect YOUR interests?
Do you understand the issues and the legal arguments that are in play?
If so please explain what you have done and what the legak arguments are.
Many thanks,
Grahame Pigney
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I am not aware of any change in status for Brits re: EU citizenship - you haven’t actually provided any detailed information - just a few vague references to websites and organisations that might like things to be different, but they are not.
By the way - I appreciate that you might like to invoke Korzybski at this point - which is fair enough; but ultimately the fact remains that the UK has left the Union and we are no longer EU citizens and that crystallises completely in just over 4 months.
I have a letter from the Mayor of the Commune in which I reside telling me that, as my European citizenship ended in January 2020 as the result of UK leaving the EU, I could neither seek to be appointed to office in the local elections, nor vote in them. My name has been struck off the electoral roll. Not an EU citizen, not entitled nor eligible to take part in the plebiscite. QED.
Plain as a pikestaff or the nose on your esteemed fizzog, old chap. Wake up and smell the coffee (I hate that inelegant injunction but it fits your obduracy like a glove).
More in sorrow than in anger…
PS If you haven’t had the same letter yourself you are either not statutorily recognised as a resident in France or, if you are, you have not sought to have your name entered on the electoral roll; or possibly didn’t read or understand your advisory letter. Maybe you are not officially known to your Mairie?
We all hate that we are no longer EU citizens and wish that we could still be but I think you will have to move on with this discussion.
I suppose it is the same as UK actually left EU in Jan 2020 - the UK is no longer an EU member -as such a UK citizen is no longer an EU citizen.
In reality you either accept @anon88169868 clear point, at worse you accept you will lose EU citizenship in just over 3 months time - either way the result is pretty much the same.
Do you have another way to help those of us living in France - as this particular issue doesn’t seem worth wasting energy on.
OFFS Grahame, get a grip, I can well understand your frustration at having your European citizenship taken away from you, I think we’re all with you on that one, but stop clutching at straws, face the facts and move on. France is doing all it can (let’s not forget the covid-19 climate and the fact that there are a million and one things that are more important for France and the French (9 deaths in an ephad and the thousand or so a day people testing positive) to put in place very preferential mesures for Brits who have been left in this mess by the UK, NOT BY FRANCE OR THE EU
I can understand your point of view and I largely agree with it.
But it is beyond doubt that France has refused to supply us with a CdS on many occasions over the last 5 years, using such spurious grounds as they don’t supply them to UK citizens, UK citizens don’t need them, they are deferring issuing them because they don’t know what the WA will be, they don’t know whether there will be an extension and on the last occasion because their systems are not in place.
I am not clutching at straws, what I have said about the possibility of UK citizens in EU27 countries having legitimate grounds to challenge the EU and the EU27 about discrimination and breaching EU law is based on expert advice from some of the top lawyers in the UK.
This has nothing to do with coronavirus and I have never said it was.
If you don’t want to challenge governments or supra-governmental organisations breaching the rule of law that is fine, but some of us have already done so and are prepared to do so again.
Best,
Grahame Pigney
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I have no carte de séjour, I did ask a while back after the Brexit vote and was given the same reasons as you. On refelction, the reasons were and still are correct : no I didn’t and still do not need a carte de séjour. And if they had given me one it wouldn’t have changed anything and it would become useless/void after the transition period anyway. Not having one has not changed a thing, I still go about my day-to-day life, still run my business etc. at no point have I needed to produce one, my UK passport is my ID and proof that I have a right to be here up until the end of the transition period (and beyond in fact) and like others I will simply apply for a carte de séjour that will be needed and worth something once the site goes online (although I should have gained French nationality by then). I did have a carte de séjour back in 2001/2002 but that didn’t change anything then either!
As for fighting government and supra-gouvernment legislation and organisations… courage et bonne chance ! I’ll by jumping through the very-kindly, very well-arranged hoops the French government is putting in place for us and glad I won’t have to pay the 269€ usually required for third country nationals
I did apply for and get a CDS but very shortly after that, the prefectures (quite rightly IMO) stopped issuing them for precisely the reasons you have outlined above.
@anon65742194 - please stop feeling so hard done by and got at. It is ridiculous and you will just make yourself ill.
You’ve made your choice and I’ve made and exercised mine.
Bonne chance to you. I’m just glad that several thousand people decided to challenge the UK government on how they were ignoring the rule of law.
The rule of law is one of our fundamental rights, BUT it relies on people being prepared to fight for the application of the rule of law.
Your reference to 269€ for a CdS is a complete red herring as it won’t apply to UK citizens legally resident in EU27 countries. A diversionary argument.
Grahame Pigney
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Thank you for the concern for my welfare, but that doesn’t change the facts of the situation.
France, in common with other EU27 countries, has been prevaricating for years and denying us our rights. Checking how your fellow expatriates in the EU27 are being treated by looking at BritishInEurope and other campaign sites will perhaps provide you with more insight into how UK citizens in EU27 countries are being denied their rights and being discriminated against.
Grahame Pigney
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It doesn’t matter what the grounds for refusal were as the French authorities are not allowed to refuse to issue a residence document to EU citizens when requested by those who qualify for permanent residence after living in France for five years. That boat has sailed for Brits but at the time permanent residence documents to which they were entitled were being illegally refused on spurious grounds.
Here is a report from the European Citizens Action Service that highlights France’s illegal refusal of residence documents to EU applicants (as well as a host of other egregious examples of other EU states putting obstacles in the way of residence & freedom of movement eg Sweden’s personnummer Catch 22).
