Another fine mess…

I’m not so sure. The turnout in Wakefield was only 39%. Of course it’s always lower in by-elections - but it was over 52% in Tiverton & Honiton on the same day. While few may be willing to vote for this government at present, they are not really inspired by Labour either - in fact Labour’s share of the vote in Wakefield was less than it was in 2017 under the supposedly unelectable Corbyn.

Actually the Labour vote has been declining for years - decades - for structural economic reasons in most of the red wall seats - going right back into the Blair years, and including his old constituency. Strategists on the left of the party have serious doubts about letting the win them back triangulation dominate electoral tactics - as opposed for example targeting commuter towns that were naturally conservative, but where younger, university-educated people (natural Labour voters) are increasingly moving out of cities.

However it was close enough to be within the recent margin of error.

What is interesting (and not necessarily good news for Labour) is that the independent candidate Akef Akbar who is (or was ?) a conservative  councillor polled 7.6% of the vote so arguably the RW vote was somewhat split. Not enough on its own to prevent the Labour victory but it might have been extremely close had the independent candidate not stood.

Both results were as much an anti-Johnson protest than they were endorsements for either the Lib Dems or Labour.

Interested to know why you think graduates are natural labour voters?

It’s just the result of a lot of research JohnBoy - actually not just in the UK - throughout the developed world, people that stay in education over age 20, or are still in education, seem to be more inclined to the left. There is a difficulty in some studies untangling youth and education as factors (as there was in the brexit vote), because post-school education has gradually been extended in most countries to more of the population - so younger people tend to be more highly educated than older anyway.

There is also evidence that the more educated you are (ie. have post-graduate qualifications, teach at universities, etc) the more inclined to the left you’re likely to be. On a personal note, it’s certainly true that the profound thinkers I most respect - Bertrand Russell, Albert Einstein, Jean-Paul Sartre, etc - shared not only remarkable insight, but life-long efforts to add to their education, and life-long movement to the political left.

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Probably because they have been influenced by all the Labour voting teachers in their schools.

Really?

And that they haven’t paid any taxes yet. That’s always a good reality check when you first see a good chunk of your wages get hoovered up by HMRC.

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Probably because they have been influenced by all the Labour voting teachers in their schools.

So hardly surprising as they were thrown under bus during covid with zero reward (for many previous years included) for their hard work and loyalty…along with most other public facing professions.

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Bit of a circular argument - teaching has been an all-graduate profession for many years, so whether more educated people are more left-wing because of teachers’ influence, or whether teachers are more left-wing because they are educated, is like the chicken and the egg…

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But that’s the point, isn’t it NotALot? People on the left pay the same taxes as people on the right - the difference is that they have a deeper understanding - of both the fact that all wealth is social in origin, so not really ‘theirs’, and of the usefulness of taxation; even, if they’ve read enough economic history, that the higher the marginal tax rate the better their lives are likely to be.

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More evidence that this corrupt Tory government want to silence the people… So ashamed that human rights are being abused :angry:
From my memory of his activities outside Parliament during the Brexshit campaign, he was never violent - and in the main a perfect English gentleman.

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If you need a policeman just shout Stop Brexit loudly!

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The Met that has been put under special measures because of their ‘systemic failings’ decide to send out 25 policemen to confiscate one man’s set of speakers!

Steve Bray’s crowdfund has more than doubled in less than 24 hours, Lawyers are already demanding information from the police regarding the section of the new law they used to confiscate and threaten Bray. Also a possible libel case against Andrea Leadsom for calling Bray ‘violent’ without proof.

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The problem with Bray was his noise, not his message.

I think that you have that volte face.

think again… he hadn’t even set up his equipment :roll_eyes:

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I somehow doubt if his message was pro government that he would have encountered any problems.

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I read bits of The Guardian every day, but skip articles on politics (unless @John_Scully or others here recommend them - for which I’m grateful). But I do read the more analytical articles, generally by subject specialists not journalists - and by god today they really painted a picture of the depth of the mess…

  • Research has shown that the Tory-LibDem NHS privatisation drive from 2012 has in fact led to unnecessary deaths - just as its opponents predicted.
  • The Sir Tom Moore NHS charity that so enthused many Brits is now under investigation for corruption - the Charity Commission has already had to stop a family member being appointed on a six-figure salary - and there seem to be all sorts of dark financial goings-on.
  • I guess we all enjoyed the 2012 London Olympics - but it turns out all of its promise in terms of long term effects turned to ashes. Not only did public participation in sport subsequently decline, but far from benefiting the local area of East London as promised, it actually destroyed local communities and hundreds of great small businesses, and replaced them with high-rise housing for the rich - which no local people can afford.

These are just some examples. Everybody here knows the UK government is corrupt - but these stories are not about the current government. Instead, they point to a deep-seated malaise - of which Boris Johnson etc are not the cause, but merely one symptom.

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Interestingly I wouldn’t view any of those as indicative of “the depth of the [current] mess”

The first one is too far removed from the actual current quagmire though clearly part of the direction the Tories wanted to set, but I don’t believe privatisation within the NHS is necessarily a bad thing - don’t forget all GPs are self employed, and the much lamented PFI did at least get real hospitals built. But it needs to be handled well and it generally isn’t (PFI, for instance, left the NHS with far too much debt for what it achieved).

The Tom Moore charity thing is broadly what I’d expect when inexperienced people get handed £32 million to distribute charitably and mistakenly think they are owed some gravy off of the train.

Olympic games tend to do this, rarely living up to the hype of local regeneration or improved access to/involvement in sport - look at what happened to the facilities in Athens, for example. If you want to improve either local areas or involvement in sport steady investment over many years is needed (indeed we did this to a good extent which is why our medal tally improved so much), flash bang overhyped massive projects without follow through are generally the polar opposite of what you need.

I know your point was about a deep seated malaise but if you want examples of that how about both the current PM and the ex health secretary engaging in sexual activity in the HoC FFS1 or the former trying to get his then mistress a highly paid job in the civil service or trying to channel public funds to a different mistress when he was Mayor. The fact that both basically got away with it2 is really indicative of how far we have sunk, not to mention the number of male (mostly Tory, I believe) MPs being investigated for sexual impropriety.

1] Separately with different women, obviously; I just realised that there was an alternate way to parse my sentence and I now have a mental image that I can’t un-see :face_vomiting:

2] OK, Johnson did not get Carrie appointed and Hancock is temporarily persona non grata and out of the cabinet but he did not lose his job as an MP, and neither has met any meaningful sanction.

Re the Captain Tom stuff, the original money HE raised was all legitimately dealt with and went where he wanted. After that the family set up a separate charity in his name, and that is what is being investigated
According to the BBC his original donations were managed by NHS Charities Together

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