I’m looking at moving my family permanently to France and I’m looking at the viability of doing it while commuting to the UK and working for my current (UK) company. I’m a UK citizen and only have a UK passport but my wife is French and my kids have dual nationality so no worries there. I’m waiting for some availability for the TCF language exams to start getting my French passport but for now that’s not happening.
So I’m wondering, if we all move over, am I time limited for how long I can stay in France with the family (e.g. do I need a crash pad in the UK or will nights in a B&B do?) or do I get any spousal residency rights and if so, how long can I stay between returns to the UK?
My company is a large UK only organisation. I understand if my family is settled in France that the tax authorities consider me as resident in France from their point of view (even if I spend several days a week working in the UK) and that puts an additional liability on my UK employer beyond HMRC and the reciprocal taxation arrangements, but I don’t know what that would be. I need some idea so I can go to them and ask if they can accommodate me moving abroad.
Is there anything else I should be aware that might cause a hiccup in my plans?
The tolerance on performing work in France for a UK co is rule of thumb 25% of your time before your employer becomes liable for employer social charges and potentially more. A “representative office” could be set up as a liaison in France that could help.
It’s commented on quite a bit in previous threads if you want to have a proper look through the site.
Others will comment on your position as husband of a French national but basically you should be fine.
First off, you can get a visa to be in France which should be pretty automatic as you are married to a French person, Here:
But you have to be here 6 months a year…so you need to decide where you will be resident. If you are here less than 183 days then probably have to apply for a 4-12 month visa every year and stay resident in Uk with health and tax in UK.
If you want to be here longer more complex is working. When you are working will you physically be in France or the UK? This makes a difference.
If you are working (even remotely) while you are here it gets complicated, and requires a fair bit from your employer. As Karen says there is limited tolerance.
However if you commute it is different. There are frontaliers who are based here, but commute regularly. This is a special status and I have a feeling that if you didn’t get this status before 31/12/20 the UK is no longer eligible. But not sure so need to check.
Because if you continue to work for your employer, and are resident here (ie more than 183 days) without the status of a frontalier then national insurance /health cover becomes messy.
If you were resident in France before the end of 2020
(Correction of mistype 2020 tx Larkswood) then your frontalier pattern of work ie verifiable employment in UK, would mean you would still be eligible to ask the UK for an S1 whilst you are still pre-UK retirement age. That seems to be the only way the UK would provide you an S1 now pre-retirement. As a British retired person of at least UK state pension age the Withdrawal Agreement means you will still have the right to request an S1 at that time.
An S1 does 2 things : you hand it to CPAM as it says the UK will pay France for your state health cover in France. You’ll still be sensible to buy a mutuelle though, which is topup cover you choose to add to your CPAM coverage to increase coverage from the often only 60-70% CPAM reimburses.
The other thing an S1 does is it means you won’t have to pay the social charge deduction from your worldwide earned income when you do your annual tax return for France which you must do from when you choose to become resident in France. I think it starts at 7.5%. That’s because the UK pays France for your social cover via sn S1 if you get one. Social charges are also made on other things in France like capital gains, and I suspect will be made on more things in future. I am not sure if the S1 exempts you from social charges on those other things or just on income.
Rule No.1 is France runs on paper. Rule No.2 is public administration entities including CPAM seem to lose original documents you provide to them, quite a lot. So Rule No.3 is any document you have that could need to be handed over : photocopy enough for repeated occasions of having to hand over key documents for all sorts of things, for at least a decade. Also scan and I’d suggest you keep a scan in the cloud too.
If you are resident in France yes you will have to do annual tax return in France. There is a double taxation agreement. So you could deal with HMRC so as to end up paying whichever is your non-prime country any difference. However if you are working in the UK then you are likely to overstep the 30 working days that would bring you back into the UK system anyway. Talk to HMRC about this.
Bear in mind that some things like interesting tax deductions on earned income in the UK, are only available to residents or tax residents in the UK. You can be tax liable as a resident in 2 countries even though only resident in 1 so you can easily be reporting tax to both. You don’t have to become resident in France to apply for nationality. So look into things before you change residence officially. My feeling is your marriage gives you all the access you need to France right now, you can still apply for nationality and it may be a little early to switch residence officially - it could cost you a lot if you are still working.
PS anyone planning on working remotely in France, as Jane says that will count as working in France and beyond the current concession of 25% does attract tax and social charges costs from you and your employer. Your employer would technically also be liable for all sorts of other things, your work environment being the thin end of the wedge. I would only, ever, have an informal verbal agreement with my employer of flexibility being tolerated, of occasional days or if transport difficulties etc occur.
Lest anyone think remote work is hard to track, France did approve a Snooper’s Charter unlike the UK and it’s currently operational.
Hi and welcome to the frontalier club if you all (everyone hopefully on board!) decide to join.
I’m just such a creature and exercised my free movement rights for WA. That was in 2020, I will defer to @KarenLot for end 2021 - I ] think the just about still in place trade and cooperation (sic) agreement keeps the S1 regime going.
I started a couple of frontalier threads, one on the S1 and one on tax so perhaps use these for queries - just to keep everything together - that said lots of things seem to be re-invented on this site!
Just ask wherever and whatever you’d like - though bear in mind much of my research was on the WA basis. However the tax basis (should be) still the same - it might be that you are wholly solely UK taxed or accepted as both UK and france tax resident and france (living) resident- I think you can probably game it to whatever is your advantage if you wanted
Your residency rights will derive from your wife - you being the third country national?
I think where you are taxed on your salary will be entirely down to what you tell HMRC - assuming the social security co-ordination rules are applicable to you under the above mentioned trande and co-operation agreement, you not falling under the WA treaty.
I think it’s fairly easy / fluid - after we got our double tax treaty forms signed by the France tax authorities, when we spoke with the HMRC foreign tax person they asked me whether I’d like my UK salary removed from UK tax! (I said no, no, no)
David my partner had a similar problem with her employer in London. To prevent hassle they agreed she should become a consultant to them. She then merely invoices on a monthly basis and sorts out her own affairs which both tax authorities are happy with. He now works remotely in France or at her London office as required. Just a thought. Hope you love France as much as we do.
make France tax return - in our cases we did paper forms, still not heard anything yet! (but there won’t be any taxes for just last December, except maybe some social interest charges). I think you can get a france tax identification number on-line now.
get the forms stamped- I took them along to our tax official we deal with, showed him my CDS as he promptly stamped and signed them.
post to HMRC (I sent scanned copies to someone in the UK at that time, they printed and posted).
start ringing HMRC to push along - initially they said by the end of March, I pointed out that was after the 20-21 UK tax return deadline! - we managed to get through to an international tax worker who kindly said they would process them that day as they were now looking at them as we talked. They also processed them without the France tax number.
Do the 20-21 UK return apportioning interest accordingly. If no UK tax return is made and all PAYE, they do the calculations and send cheques or refunds to bank account through the personal tax account.
PS HMRC said when new pensions etc become in payment, you need to get a new form for these. No form needed for state pension as it’s paid without tax deducted.
