Banks pays unnauthorised Direct Debit

General Discussion
1

I am really angry. I have seen a DD (prelevement) on my statement which I have not authorised.(from Orange). After some correspondance with my bank (Credit Agricole) they inform me that the are not obliged to see / keep a copy of any DD so cannot give me any information about it. They have told me that it is up to me to contact Orange and sort it out. (They have offered to refuse to pay any further request from Orange). This is incredible. It means that anyone can direct debit my account and the bank will simply pay up.


I had problems in the early days with some bills from EDF and vowed never to use DD's again and I pay for almost all of my services by cheque now. The French of course cannot understand this as they are used to using prelevements for everything - and in fact are used to being screwed with zero level of customer service everywhere.

2

It's not just the banks that are crooks. During our emigration from England we made a number of vehicle journeys. We filled up at all different fuel stops over a 15 day period. When we finally settled and tried to use our UK cards (waiting for French bank), we discovered some 15 charges on 3 separate UK accounts that we knew nothing of. When we questioned the individual banks we were told that ALL were fuel purchases in France. It appeared that the Hypermarches and filling stations were attempting to claim for purchases that we hadn't made. thankfully, but eventually, the claims died and we had access to the funds again. But in the interim it was a nightmare.

Beware using cards in automated filling stations.

3

Yup, that's the SEPA thing. But obviously the key thing is that the person taking the money has to have a signed mandate, and if there is no signed mandate they are breaking the law.

4

in the hope of just adding some further information, I show below an extract from an email I received from my bank manager :

"As far as proof authorizing Orange to debit your account, banks are not requested to have it (it's recommended but not mandatory). Regulation is now changing and from Feb 2014, it will be mandatory for all suppliers such as Orange -and not for banks- to keep a signed authorization in their records".

5

I agree! The new SEPA direct debit is a European initiative which is meant to standardise the dd procedure across European countries. Can't say I think it's a good move if it means the bank doesn't get to see a DD mandate before they start releasing funds and then (as in your case Geoff) put the onus on the Customer to sort it out.

The SEPA dd is in the process of being rolled out but hasn't taken over completely.

Glad it seems to be being sorted :)

6

I would like to say (after all I started this thread) that I did not sign a mandate for this prelevement, the bank could not show me one and just now on my most recent statement I see that the some has been reimbursed and marked as rejected. So I am happy (well a little happier) again.

What really annoys me is that this was an error and the bank was telling me that it is my responsibility to sort it out with Orange. In my opinion, if the bank pays a DD they should be able to show me a copy of it.

regards

geoff

7

Absolutely, but the bank does not have sight of the second way of doing things and it introduces another level of incompetence into what should be a straightforward procedure.

8

But as per Ms Bennett's reply you still have to have signed a mandate Jane - so no one can set up a direct debit on your account without your written autorisation.

9

Subject: DIRECT DEBITS - Williamson

This is the reply we have received from Britline, which makes it quite clear. They can help themselves to your money and you have to fight it out afterwards.

Dear Mr & Mrs Williamson,

Further to your request for more information regarding the direct debit system, please see below:

Since 1st November 2010 there have been two systems in place for direct debits in France. These are the traditional French Direct Debit "prélèvement" and the new SEPA Direct Debit. With both systems a mandate is signed by the payer (you) to authorise the biller (EDF for example) to collect a payment and to instruct your bank to make payment. The biller is obliged to inform you in advance of the amount and date(s) of the payments.

In the case of a traditional direct debit, you send the "autorisation de prélèvement" to the biller and he forwards it to the bank. With the new SEPA direct debit the mandate is held exclusively by the biller. The biller must be identified in the SEPA system with a unique reference number (ICS).

In both cases the payer is fully protected as you can contest a direct debit payment and request a refund within 8 weeks of the payment being made. In the event of an unauthorised direct debit payment the right for a refund is extended to 13 months (copies of the mandate will be requested).

However, contesting a payment does not cancel the debt you may owe and you should therefore always contact the biller first to try to regularise the situation.

I trust that this clarifies the situation for you but if you need any further assistance please do not hesitate to let us know.

Kind regards,

Christine BENNETT

Responsable distribution et fonctionnement
CA Britline

15 Esplanade Brillaud-de-Laujardiere, 14050, CAEN Cedex

Tel: 0033 (0)2 31 55 67 89 Fax: 0033 (0)2 31 55 63 99

www.britline.com e-mail: britline@ca-normandie.fr

10

I reserve the right to withdraw my overdraft!

11

that's a completely separate issue and the same applies in the UK where it is known as a lien. That said, it should only happen in v. rare circumstances i.e. where it is clear that the money is owed and that you have the money but are not (for whatever reason) paying it. That said, they still have to make an application in law for the right to do it and let you know first. In Steve's case all this may have happened but because he wasn't getting any post he wouldn't know. Although strictly speaking he CAN challenge it (or even you if you're reading this Steve!) because if, for example, they send a letter accuse reception they must in law prove that the person to whom the letter was sent has not only received it but has read it.

But a lot of bank personnel don't realise that!

12

Wish it were that simple. I think I will have a problem if I request my English pension companies to send me cash in Euros each month:-))

You're right of course. They are all a bunch of government protected thieves but until someone comes up with a better idea I fear they have us by the short & curlies!

13

PEOPLE NEVER LEARN,

NEVER TRUST A BANK in any form as the are all crooks.

They have screwed us over once before and will do it again.

You should all with draw your money and leave the banks with nothing.

14

Certainly seems like it. I still dont know how they knew what account to take it out of although it was the account I used to pay the deposit on the place

15

I must just add that my bank has told me that "government" agencies (i.e. taxes etc) do have the right to take money from one's account .

16

David, see my earlier response about mail in Angola. I may not have been clear enough - I was in Angola hence didnt get the bill for french taxes but the bank that took the money was in France - Bank Populaire Sud in Trebes - When I challenged them, all I got was a shrug

17

Replying to myself I have to say that we have never had a problem with our local branch of Banque Pop. That is not to say that other branches may not do bad stuff.

The problem with Banking is that there are too many people in the business who want to make money. That should not be the purpose of Banking.

Stieg Larsson made a very good definition between stock markets and the economy. And just because someone tells you what they are doing is legal does not mean that it is.

18

elucidate old chap

19

Dont believe them !!. It was Bank Populaire who took the 2,000 out of my account without permission, discussion or notification

20

Thanks Jane,

It'll be jolly interesting to see. Depending on their reply you might want to draw their attention to

articles L133-6 et L133-7 du Code Monétaire et Financier

according to which un prélèvement ne peut être effectué qu'avec une autorisation écrite du débiteur

and, here comes the good bit -

Ensuite, il faut vous retourner contre le créancier ou son mandataire. Outre les peines prévues lorsque le créancier ou son mandataire contacte et informe des tiers (ici, le banquier), en cas de prélèvement bancaire non autorisé, le débiteur pourra considérer qu'il y a eu :

  • faux et usage de faux, sanctionné par l'article 441-1 du code pénal
  • escroquerie, sanctionnée par l'article 313-1 du code pénal
  • extorsion, sanctionnée par l'article 312-1 du code pénal

So there's fun!