So true, Jane.
So, in addition to referring to those who voted leave as “bastards” you refuse the olive branch proffered by Sandy Hewlett?
Anybody who follows the news as it affects Brits and particularly expats will probably be glued to their TV’s around 12.30 French time on Saturday to watch “Dateline London” a programme on which Marc Roche has been a distinguished commentator for years. He has been an acerbic critic of the British (always with humour, I emphasize) and then suddenly a complete volte face. He, with a shy charm, revealed that he had become “one of us”. He could of course have adopted British nationality without becoming a Leaver and I have not yet had the advantage of reading his book to see the nuts and bolts of that change. Most who voted to leave, as I did, were concerned about inward migration into the UK on the scale that was experienced in the recent past. The fact that this receded somewhat on the back of the £’s loss of value does not mean that it could not return were things to change.
1 Like
Torre you seem to have an awful lot of faith in Theresa May and the Tories, to deliver the best deal for the country and people, as opposed for themselves and their wealthy donors. Frankly whatever May tells the EU has about as much substance as reflections in a puddle. Her governemt has been caught out in lies, corruption and more lies, shady dealings and downright cruelty in the past few years so what on earth makes you imagine she can be trusted on allowing EU citizen to stay in the UK? They’ve stirred the post of nationalism, anyone caught speaking a foreign language is abused (even I was and I’m bloody English, even if I speak Spanish to my Spanish rescue dog) foreign nationals have been physically attacked, their shops attacked and the whole atmosphere is unpleasant, whipped up by the likes of the right wing press uttering headlines about ‘Bulldog spirit’, needing to ‘man the canons against the nasty EU’, ‘stand firm as they wage war on the UK because of Brexit’. Foreign nurses and vets are leaving in droves. My late Mother was German born and she’d recognise the atmosphere with Jews being blamed for the country’s ills, the government telling people they were the master race and superior to others, needing to rise up and claim what is ours. And we all know how that turned out.
With Gove using the words over the gates of Auschwitz as a slogan “work makes you free”, and the .culling of the ‘unproductive people’ (sick, disabled and old) by stealth, believe me, if I could get out, I would. The Tories are toxic.
I agree. They may have married parents. Call them selfish, gullible, dim by all means though. Especially those who live in the EU while wanting the UK to leave the EU so that nobody else has the opportunities they did and will sit and watch the country plunged into ecnomic chaos. Bastards? Nope. Idiots. Yup… And I say so most politely.
1 Like
Same for me Jane. I won’t even use local businesses to me if I know they voted for Brexit and frankly would feel glee if they went bust.
Of course I have few social skills and almost no empathy towards humans at all (I’m on the autism spectrum) so if a Brexiter suffered dire straits, told me his missus couldn’t afford to put food on the table, he was out of work and his kids went to bed hungry I’d tell him “tought titties chum, it’s what you voted for even though others warned you.”.
1 Like
I find it astonishing that anyone would vote leave based on inward migration. We know from French regulations that even within the EU migration is not a free pass. If the UK government is allowing migration without financial stipulations for self support in place then that is not a fault of the EU.
The migration within the EU is small compared to windrush and previous empire state citizens who quite rightly have expectations to live and work in the UK.
The day after the Brexit vote an eastern European guy came to fit our broadband. He had lived and worked in the UK for 8 years and was worried sick that he may have to leave. We reassured him that we thought he would be ok and we apologised for the dreadful decision which I will always firmly believe was mostly based on the lies spread by the msm and politicians during a time of austerity when a kick back should have been expected by Cameron.
Blame Johnny Foreigner is a lazy, bigoted answer to a complex problem. Far better to look at manufacturing, or lack of it. The Tories having sold the family silver, Gordon Brown selling our gold cheap, politicians have run out of stock. A respected US economist says the £ would have dropped regardless of Brexit because of our borrowing and poor manufacturing base. Now the politicians can blame all our ills on Brexit and the EU and the gullible will fall for it.
2 Likes
- Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP
- The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
- The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China
- With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours
- Tariff-free trade within the EU
- The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members
- Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member
- The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services
- The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services
- Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe
- As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners
- 3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU
- Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)
- Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering)
- The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League
- The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion.
- Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU
- No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market
- Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency transactions across the Eurozone
- FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market
- The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending)
- No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK)
- The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU
- British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU
- Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)
- Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire)
- Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD)
- EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project
- Financial support from the EU for over 3000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK
- EU funding for the British film industry
- EU funding for British theatre, music and dance
- EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league
- Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies
- EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices
- Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU
- Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
- The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership
- Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law
- The right to reside in any EU member state
- The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions
- The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU
- The mutual recognition of educational diplomas
- The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU
- The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK)
- The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)
- The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries
- The ability to retire in any member state
- Pension transferability
- The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state
- EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent
- The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card)
- Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU
- The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference)
- Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)
- Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation
- Reductions in sewage emissions
- Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water
- EU standards on the quality of drinking water
- Restrictions on landfill dumping
- EU targets for recycling
- Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste
- The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas
- EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms
- Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks
- Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)
- Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry
- Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London)
- 13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation
- The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research
- EU funding for UK universities
- Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom
- Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)
- Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957
- The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime
- Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women
- Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth
- EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation
- EU rules governing health and safety at work
- The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law
- The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area
- Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget
- EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime
- The European common arrest warrant
- Europe-wide patent and copyright protection
- EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety
- Improved food labeling
- A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives
- Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws
- Common EU air passenger rights
- Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices
- Mutual recognition of the common European driving license
- The introduction of the European pet passport
- The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges
- The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement
- A frictionless Irish border
- The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar
- The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists
- EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue
- UK membership of the EU has promoted the use of the English language which has replaced French as the EU’s lingua franca
- The EU has helped maintain peace in Europe for over 60 years
2 Likes
I’m not “blaming Johnny Foreigner” as you put it. We (the UK) had EU rules but they were inadequately applied and poorly enforced (contra France) and the voters, quite rightly, called a halt. In fact the totally unscrupulous Tony Blair intended to permanently alter the UK demographics by unrestricted inward migration. Your reference to “previous empire state citizens having a legitimate present expectation of [coming to] live and work in the UK” is simply ludicrous. The implication is that every Indian, Pakistani Bangladeshi and African from our previous colonies has a present automatic right to enter the UK. Nor am I a bigot…
Your reasoning just illustrates the way that so many leave voters cast their vote because they didn’t understand the details of immigration. If they were worried about their ability to get a job in a competitive situation or felt frightened when they heard people speaking foreign the might well be worried about the effect of immigration on their lives. However to vote to leave the EU when the solution to their concerns lay in the hands of the British government was using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
Much of the reality of Brexit has come to light since the referendum and the voting population is now much better informed. If leave voters think that another vote would make no difference why are they so terrified that one might actually happen?
We’ve just seen a list of the real advantages of EU membership. Can one of the leave supporters please explain where the money is going to come from to allow the population of Britain to enjoy the standard of living that you seem to expect to happen as a result of Brexit?
1 Like
I apologise for inferring you may be a bigot, I used to work near Bradford and unfortunately I have met many.
Fantastic catalogue of benefits, thanks for sharing them Teresa. Why haven’t they been made widely available to the general public, I ask? Now it is being recklessly squandered by Brexiteers who dangle the dazzling prize of “cheaper food, cheaper clothes and cheaper footwear” before our eyes.
An era of chlorinated chicken, hormone-laden tasteless beef, GM soya and “Make England White Again” T-shirts. And we can all stamp our clogged feet in welcome when Trump rolls up the Mall to have Elizabeth kiss his hand in tribute.
1 Like
It would be interesting to see how many brexiteers can come up with just 50 reasons for leaving. I wait with hope that they can reassure me with a list of post Brexit benefits.
1 Like
Playing Devil’s advocate a bit - the list is somewhat repetitive (given 5,6 & 7 then 18, 22 and 28 follow and, arguably 39, 40 & 47).
21 (contribution to EU budget) isn’t a benefit of membership but given we are a net contributor then 25-32, 69 and 70 are just our own money coming back to us.
Of course we get much more benefit out in trade than we put in to the budget and just to focus on our contribution and claim it is “money down the drain” is short-sighted. But if you believe in Brexit then you might argue (and they did) that we just divert EU contributions directly to the causes that the EU supported so we do not need to be in the EU to get these “benefits”.
Similarly if you believe that the EU interferes with too much legislation then 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 and a few others might be seen as being imposed upon us - again I believe that this was the case in the referendum campaign.
So, while I might agree the EU has brought many benefits someone on the Leave side of the fence might view these very same things as evidence for extricating ourselves from the EU.
2 Likes
I’m not going to debate this with you because you and I, plus Simon, have run through it all before and you, he (and the person to whom I made the response) will never answer a question. You just launch into a prepared speech or abuse. Try this: “Why did Marc Roche change his mind”? Why do thinking people like Frank Field, Gisela Stuart and Tim Shipman (to name but a few) think “Leave” was the answer?
Your apology, gracious as it is, is accepted.
1 Like
That still leaves 80 points.
Always good to play devils advocate, I like people that can debate without getting too personal.
I still think the disaffected working classes formed a significant part of the younger leave voters.
2 Likes
I really don’t see how clothes, food or shoes can be any cheaper. Food has increased in price already. In may I bought my grandson holiday t shirts in Primark for £1.30 each! Half the price of a coffee!
I asked the Primark assistant about ethical sourcing and was pleasantly surprised that they have robust standards in place. I also like the fact than rather than charge for plastic bags they put everything in brown paper bags free of charge. Only a problem when its raining!
That’s what I’d love to know, real reasons. They’re never provided.
2 Likes
I am not interested in olives.
I came here without the need for any papers to live as a European in another European country, just as our daughter has done in Germany for the last twenty years.
I want the young people at University now to have the same opportunities.
Saying that you are thinking of future generations is pie in the sky thinking.
We need to think of our own children and grandchildren now.
We want peace in Europe. We do not want the extreme right, Farage and all his lying Trump like cronies to order our lives.
I was at my meeting of french/english ladies this morning and I heard from of my french friends that the english family her cousin married into is riven in two.
I will not have anything to do with people who voted for Brexit and those living in France deserve double ignominy.
I am with Catherine Higginson on this.
We are both incandescent.
4 Likes
Why not answer the question I put? Why did Marc Roche change his mind?