Brexit - really?

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It is interesting to hear the various arguments for & against but none of them really convince me one way or another! Some of the biggies seem to centre on trade, immigration & the EU's influence on national government

Trade.

I remember as a young lad driving to my company's agent in Germany to deliver & collect goods from them. This involved quite a lot of paperwork & the involvement of appointed shipping agents to handle customs clearance at various border crossings. I had to park up with loads of trucks, find my way to the shipping agent's office cum waiting room (if you were lucky), a lengthy wait then a trip to the customs office, another lengthy wait, back to the shipping agent then at last off to the next border. Dover docks had huge parking areas for vehicles who had to wait sometimes days to clear customs. I cannot see how a return to this system will benefit the UK. The parking space at Dover docks is no longer available either!

Immigration.

I don't think the situation will alter much - the UK struggles to find accommodation for its own homeless now so unless a lucky earthquake will throw up another land mass in our territory it will still struggle in the future. We could always get rid of those silly farm things, I suppose.

EU control.

It is said that the EU makes all the rules but I seem to remember that every country can veto certain rulings within a certain time so that, if the ruling is not appropiate, that country can opt out. France has done this effectively for years while the UK's band of MEPs are too busy padding their expenses to actually attend the European council! That is why things still get done here generally unhindered by Health & Safety regs - my village uses a tractor with a barrel tied to the front loader to enable a man to access the street lights, while a perloined neighbour stops traffic. In the UK permissions to stop traffic would have to be applied for in advance, cones & traffic lights hired along with a proper lift. The cost to a small village would be prohibitive. I don't see many builders with hard hats either.

The local market would not pass UK enforced hygiene regs either, but France is exempt on some of these because their MEPs actually DO SOMETHING!

The UK is only dominated by the EU because it is too weak to say "that new rule is not for us". Instead it becomes part of UK culture &, although not the least bit useful, it is rigidly enforced! Other bits ARE ignored, such as the EU requirement for members to insure imported cars for a short while for the purpose of getting the paperwork in order. French agents are happy to comply & the insurance is valid throughout Europe - except the UK! If you buy a car there to bring here & you want to drive it from, say, London to Dover, you will have to tax, insure & MOT it in the UK for that 79 mile trip. You can insure the car with your french agent but the UK police will consider your car unisured (incorrectly, but it will still be impounded). You can only tax & insure a UK car if you are a UK resident which, if you live here & are buying a car to import, you are not.

The EU do have a rule to allow this but the UK chooses to ignore it - so it can be done!

The UK can be a member state without becoming a slave to the EU, just need politicians with backbone! Wonder what Trump is doing....

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This is enough for me really..

I have to say that I am continually puzzled by the attitude of the Brits we have staying at the hotel, on their way to/from their holiday homes in Spain. They all seem to be in favour of leaving. Cake AND eat it?

Classic!!!!

For a rather wider perspective, this is worth a read:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/15/future-progress-renaissance-internet-europe

Re cars its a nightmare.

my hubby lost part of his driving licence and got parking fines so the gendarmerie wanted him to get a french one because they wanted withdraw points. He applied to dvla for the card but you have to live in uk for that. So the gendarmerie after him to pass his french driving code but we cant afford it.

All this because the Uk wont deliver a duplicate. For me UK has never played the european ggame. So they are better exiting and try their luck elseehere. What do you think ? Europe can live without them as this partner has never been enthusiastic. They made some effort but it looks like DeGaulle said.They will always look beyond the Atlantic and westward.Europe is second best for them.

although a brexit may not be of help to me in the short term as a resident of France, I am all for it when I view it as what is best for the greater good.

I believe the EC should be wound up and a brexit would initiate that process and would put a stop to TTIP. (If you do not know what TTIP is then it is time to look it up - it is the most evil thing we may encounter and its demise will be assured by a brexit). The EC will fall like dominoes if the Uk leaves and this is why I am in favour of an exit.

If you want further reasons for leaving : Cameron, Clinton and Obama want the Uk to stay in and back their reasoning up with threats & lies. That is enough of a reason for me.

Hi Claudia,

You should ask DVLA for a certificate of entitlement if the driver is lacking either part of their UK licence (the photocard or the paper counterpart), if it has been lost or stolen. It can be obtained by calling DVLA on +44 (0)1792 782 341.

Mark, you say you're not convinced, you certainly seem to be.

Tobias, not totally but definitely erring on the side of staying in. I'm suspicous of those who think that the IMF & the Bank of England predictions are purely political & therefore are just scare tactics so are not valid. If the predictions had been the opposite they would no doubt be spouted as correct by those same people. Predictions are no more that educated guesses, much like a business plan for a bank loan, a "best guess". Before the EU we had a whole empire to trade with but most of these countries are independent & some have stronger economies that the UK. They do not need to take our exports as they can choose.

Another part of me sees the UK as a country where standards are lowered to the lowest common denominator so that even the most dim witted individual can be credited with some sort of achievement - "there are no losers..." Sorry, but if you are a runner & you do not cross the line first then YOU HAVE LOST! Try harder next time. I know that it is not the winning that counts so lets not have levels of achievement - what rubbish! All this means that the brightest & best will see no point in stretching themselves as there is no reward at the end. Result will be a nation of neanderthols. I think we all have spotted a few!

At the moment I think stay in & see if a little bit of backbone will give the UK a bit more ability to have its say.

"It is said that the EU makes all the rules but I seem to remember that every country can veto certain rulings within a certain time so that, if the ruling is not appropiate, that country can opt out. France has done this effectively for years while the UK's band of MEPs are too busy padding their expenses to actually attend the European council!" This contains several misconceptions. Most voting in the Council is by qualified majority, which means that no individual nation can block that legislation. There are still some vetos, but for things like allowing the accession of new countries or areas of vital national interest. I don't think that Health and Safety is subject to this veto. A wide variety of Community measures in the field of safety and health at work have been adopted on the basis of Article 153 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the the institution of the European Union. European directives are legally binding and have to be transposed into national laws by Member States, including France. MEP's are not members of either the European Council (the institution of the European Union that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission), or the Council of the European Union (which acts as the voice of EU member governments, adopting EU laws and coordinating EU policies and comprises government ministers from each EU country, according to the policy area to be discussed). The European Parliament passes laws that are proposed to it by the European Commission.

I believe that when a new proposal is submitted for voting into EU law there is a wait before it is approved. If, during that time, a country submits an exemption to the proposal & there is no opposition to that exemption then when it is passed the country who submitted it is not required to apply the proposal. But I could be wrong!

in the EU, voting is not proportionate. The Uk has disproportionatly lower voting rights per head of population than say, Malta. The EU does not work. I want each country to make its own rules and be responsive to the wishes of its own residents.

Yes it makes it easier for us to live in France - but for most people it is a bad thing.

Yes, I am going to say it; it was bad when hitler tried it and it is still bad now.

My default, if I don't believe I have all the facts/knowledge to assess a situation, is to see who is saying what, and why they might be saying it. Hence when Bush / Blair said there were WMDs in Iraq, and Hans Blitz said there weren't, I saw how much it was in the 2Bs interest to convince us that there were, and concluded that there were NOT. Which there weren't.

So not being an economist (but having Remain inclinations) I assess the economic arguments based on who is saying what, and why. And to be honest the balance is so far tipped towards Remain on this as to be overwhelming (Obama, Clinton, IMF, OECD, World Bank, CBI, Mark Carney, vast majority of business leaders, every national leader except Putin....) versus discredited Tories (Boris, Gove, IDS, Lamont) plus Trump, Farage, Le Pen. One could conclude that only the really stupid, or really myopic, could still doubt the Remain economic case.

Yet still the electorate is not convinced - stupid or myopic?

not stupid or myopic Nick, simply perhaps we don't have the respect you have for "Obama, Clinton, IMF, OECD, World Bank, CBI, Mark Carney, vast majority of business leaders, every national leader except Putin...."

(at least you got it right with Bliar (sic) & bush so respect for that. Sorry you are wrong on this one.)

Geoff, respect for your strength of feeling, but no-one is yet right or wrong. It's a game of "wait & see".

I just have a gut feeling that not everyone involved is playing a political hand - B of E, for instance, is not known to be a political organ so has no axe to grind & the others did not achieve their positions by backing losers. But time will tell.

Only 5 countries are positive in net contributions to the EU, in order (2013 source : Daily telegraph) Germany, UK, France, Italy and the Netherlands. The UK gives more than the last two combined.

Can any one really be surprised that a Brexit would rock the boat? These big names mentioned (Obama, IMF etc) really yearn for world financial stability and don't give a toss about the UK.

Let's not forget that the USA only joined the last world wars, not for freedom or liberty, but because they were attacked themselves and the public opinion turned. Otherwise they were quite keen on europe being one client, with one language and one set of rules.

A last point, the EU budget is 145 000 000 000 (billion) euros, 6 % of which goes to "adminisrtation costs"

My guess is 50/50 Bruxelles and Strasbourg.

I suspect that you are, indeed, wrong - but only because that used to be the case. However, I am of the understanding that the situation has changed. Please check out Brexit - the Movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k

" B of E, for instance, is not known to be a political organ"

Not primarily, and officially. But anyone who believes that there is no political influence brought to bear on even that organisation, may also be presumed to believe that the moon is made of green cheese! Carney is saying what his political masters have told him to say!

Vote LEAVE - it's the sane, patriotic, positive way forward.

Not only that, but there are other arguments than financial. The lack of control over spending, the democratic defecit, sovereignty and the ability to control borders, for example.