Calling all parents with children at school!

General Discussion
21

Fair enough Cate, I don't know. But all the blaming and shaming comes from people with opinions and at present I am totally disillusioned with French education myself. For other reasons to do with having a child with special needs who it is proposed will be treated as a 'patient' rather than 'pupil'. Not exactly 2012.

However, the school our children is at is supposedly one of the best in the area and yet the teachers openly express the fact they have no intention of even trying to meet the demands of the curriculum and several of us got rather cross after last month's meeting. Sure, the problem probably began with Jules Ferry, I do not care, I am a parent who goes to meetings and hears those things and when teachers say they have no intention... I do not think primarily of my own children but of the whole school, all of France even, and ask what is the object? When somebody trained outside France with a daughter in the school says that she has problems with what she is seeing in front of 40 odd other parents then she needs to be sure of what she is saying and when the teacher pal who is also father of a classmate and has two more in the school confirms it is all up the spout, then something is wrong. There are articles written in recent years about the slipping standards and need for training in line with other European countries by educationalists in this country.

Marie-Claire in this thread appears to know very well what she is saying. Do not dismiss her. Hollande and his lot are not the people to do it on present form, but maybe they will crack the shell of that nut, education is letting too many children down in France. If education does that then the future of the country is the price. The system needs more than a shake up, it needs a complete revolution. Also, do not nitpick, my friend simply said standards slipped during Sarko's times, that does not exclude other times but reflects his time in teaching only.

At present, at 'our' school there is a petition with the maire because canteen staff punish children for not eating, playing with food and other 'offences'. Sitting on the floor for four minutes for not eating vegetables is simply humiliation and contravenes all children's rights standards to which France is party. The directrice did not want to intervene because the cantine is a commune thing, therefore for the mairie, so much for teachers and children having the relationship of trust required. The same directrice does not attend parents d'éleves meetings because she is not interested, they have no input into the way the school is run anyway. The children's council has meetings that have no input into the school whatsoever. Both directrice and inspector say that is normal in all schools in France which contradicts a list of things that as a long termer in the field of children's rights alone appauls me. Smacking and screaming or shouting at children is common, parents who occasionally complain are made to feel at fault, which given those things are outlawed is very contradictory. It is also humiliating and then the children appear to carry the can for the complaints afterwards. Tell me that is right. But that they are not getting the education the law guarantees them is equally a breech of their rights.

Disagree with all of this as you will, that is your right, but it could all be changed by PROPERLY teaching teachers as they are elsewhere. Now all of this will probably strike you as subjective because I am a parent, oh yes and my OH who works in the same field as I is exactly the same by the way, but knows far more about education than I do, but my concern is for ALL children who are getting substandard education.

22

Maybe even pre-dating Mr Hot Bunny Cate. Some tell me they've been 'trying' (big word) to change the system for 50 years!!

23

Of course! Just ask Pussy Riot ;) LOL

24

But Putin is a sweetie.....:)

25

The CAPES concerns knowledge rather than teaching skills. The monitoring of young teachers basically doesn't take place as their mentors have their own teaching jobs to take care of. Something has to be done, children learn despite the system, not thanks to it nowadays, and it wasn't much better when I was at school. The only difference was that disruptive kids were sifted out of the system pretty early.

26

Sure is Cate, but it is the point of view of a teacher... not mine, I know very little about education anywhere. She is French, has taught here since coming back from Canada where she taught as well, so I bow before her knowledge and opinion. Whatever, in many places the targets the curriculum set are not met, teachers do not have the skills and formal homework that is not allowed has been commonly given at primary schools and the associations of parents sites appear to reflect that quite widely. However, as my teacher mate Antoine says, during Sarkophase standards slipped and nobody bothered to do anything about it. We shall agree not doubt, Mollande and crew do better????

27

My Canadian trained teacher friend says that the previous teacher training, having compared it with other teachers, is nothing like her training. Subject teaching was weak to say the least and that she finds it ironic that having trained in Quebec they encouraged learning at least two languages other than French, English plus one which even her peers trained at the same time as her just over 15 years ago here do not have. her view is that with the old system it was also not treated as a vocation but as a second choice or alternative which is why people switched from other professions with minimal training.

OK, it is her opinion, but she turned down the opportunity to apply for a post of directice of a primary school she was told to go for because she felt she needed a it more experience whereas most applicants were unlike her, under 40 with much less. However, people in the Department's education department take great interest in her. Where we have our children and also her daughter, she is naturally not very popular with some of the staff who she has told are not up to standard...

28

Maternelle has full days: 8.30-4.30....

29

They are reopening the IUFMs which were closed down recently by the previous government. Prior to that, we had l'Ecole Normale for primary school teachers. We've only been without specific training for primary school teachers for a couple of years, but we have no real training in terms of pedagogics for secondary school and beyond.

30

Deatils will appear in their own good time undoubtedly. I just picked up on the radio that the law has been passed but the details do not all seem to correspond with what I read a couple of weeks ago. So, until it is in writing... but next year 4.5 days is starting.

31

thanks Brian - I wasn't aware that it would increase to 4.5 days next year. My 2 girls are due to join our Maternelle next September. Will have to break the news to my hubby - who had Wednesday planned as our 'beach/adventure day' I personally am quite happy with this though. Presumably Maternelle will still only do half days for the first year?

32

Enquiring Minds appears to have taken in Maria Montessori's principles, along with some of Dewey’s educational theories that trusted children far more than many contemporary child participation devotees. Underpinning relationships between adults and children takes in Illich’s critique of education that most undoubtedly placed far more trust in the hands and minds of all ages – children included. In fact, when critically examining participation as I have done for several years, education offers some positive views on how children might learn to use democracy. Then, perhaps most illustrative of all is the work of A. S. Neill. In his school, Summerhill, which was sometimes seen as an anachronism, intellectual and personal freedoms have been advocated and practised for over 80 years.

Those names and ideas are included in my work on citizenship. At present I have an an enormous manuscript with Springer Academic for review and then, I hope, work toward publication will proceed. However, whilst important, education is a minute part of my research but being a parent (again) myself I also have a vested interest in seeing positive development in education here. Having one normal but (hard for her) gifted and one special needs child, we have both poles in education at our feet at present and both of us being social scientists... hohum, family turns into research.

Interesting to keep up though and compare notes on progress here (IF!!).

33

I have to look into it myself again more deeply but I believe the Finnish education model is quite an amazing one to follow in the sense that all teachers are trained to work with special needs children and that teachers get a lot of lee way in how and what they teach of the national curriculum.

I was completely unaware that physical and mental disabilities were lumped in together in France. How did they figure that one out?

I have never been a teacher but worked for about 6 years in women's and girls' basic education for UNESCO, analysing the success of, then designing the literacy programs that were put into place in the field. It's really only since I've had my own kids at school here in France that I've started looking at education models in more depth.

I haven't read up on Summerhill but the Enquiring Minds model may encompass a part of that type of reasoning :

"Enquiring Minds is...a set of principles to underpin relationships between adults and children in schools and classrooms, which see children taking increasing responsibility for determining the content and purpose of their learning.

Enquiring Minds is...a response to the challenges schools face in the task of preparing children for a future characterised by rapid social, technological and cultural change.

Enquiring Minds is...a distinctive approach to teaching and learning which takes seriously the knowledge, ideas, interests and skills that students bring into schools."

I went to a high-school in Australia where participating in community-based projects was also a required part of the curriculum.

Love to be updated on what you're up to and I'll check out Summerhill in the mean time.

:)

34

My youngest are now in Lycee ( twind of 17) but went through the school system in France from the age of 8. We think the standard of education was fab and certainly do not regret giving out boys the chance to learn "the French way"
Ann

35

The model looks good.

For myself, I am very much a 'disciple' of Paolo Freire when it comes to education anyway. My work in the field of children's participation in civil society and more recently children as citizens, has also encouraged me to look back over all the ideas like Summerhill and so on that are no longer in vogue. Education, my view as somebody who has researched children for several decades, only works as a partnership between all protagonists. It then works because there is a share vision of acheivement and active communication between all levels. I am not trained in education, nor have I actually studied it specifically but it has often found its way into my work.

The article, well not even started because we did not know this reform is coming. My wife and I will be working on one into special education provision over the next few months because it is only socio-medical and contains almost no pedagogic element. At a meeting for our special needs child last week, we were told that the special school we visited offers about two hours of educational work each day. Because 'handicap' is as it is in France, children with physical disabilities but entirely normal educational capacity are lumped together with those with disabilities, mental health and so on that hinders learning. What does that offer any of them? They are consigned to the societal scrap heap for being different!

I am not a teacher myself, although taught at university for many years, but a research academic who specialises in childhood, so I am learning as I look at it all.

36

Indeed this is a vast subject. So much so that I'm tentatively looking into starting a bilingual collège in my area along the lines of this model :http://www.ggs.vic.edu.au/PosEd/Overview.aspx and bringing in more of an enquiry-based learning type of approach. Still have quite a few months research to put into it but I foresee one of the big problems being recruiting teachers. Will let you know.

I ended up homeschooling my kids when I found myself arguing with my 8 year old about her homework - learning the dates for the 100 year war (that wasn't) by heart and after realising that my 11 year old was going to start coming home at 6pm in order to throw herself into her homework.

I somehow managed to pass school and a degree in international trade and finance, plus work for UNESCO without ever having to sit at a desk and learn by wrote for so many hours.

I would have loved to read the article on teacher training. The French would do well to take a leaf out of the Fins' books if they are going to start up teacher training. But as you say - who will do the training? Looking forward to being kept informed on this one.

37

Interesting one. The law states that 'formal' homework is forbidden but the volume my nine year old has despite some friends and I confronting her teacher at the school meeting last month is gobsmacking.

My big disappointment is that on the teacher training, an article with a friend who is a trained teacher (she is French but trained in Canada) has just gone lost. I am, of course, wondering how they are going to find people to teach the theory of education, educational pedagogy and psychology and other theoretical issues alongside the practical ones. Given the class teacher mentioned told her class that the 'langue vivant' (English) would receive half an hour here and there, despite 54 school hours per year in the curriculum, and last week asked my daughter how to spell Wednesday because she had not had time to prepare classes, I am not yet going to raise a flag. By the time they reach classes our lot will more or less be through and done with it all anyway.

Nonetheless, I shall keep my eye out for the complete government information and amuse myself having a good read.

38

Mmm- looking forward to seeing how that progresses. Children in primary school have not meant to have home work over many of the last years but that hasn't stopped teachers giving homework nor 'success' bent parents asking for it, while whinging about getting it. Remaining dubious unfortunately, which goes against my Aussie optimism. I'm not putting mine back in the French school system until I see real change. Crossing fingers behind my back though.

And oh - what a novel thought - teacher training degrees! At last :)

39

Not as in other countries. If people have a fully trained profession, they do a year of IUFM. My mate Antoine who was in IT did that and the incompetent woman in charge of the CLIS (special education) class was a photographer and did her year, etc. Hollande's people noticed how unique France is in not having specific teacher training as a vocation... Now let chaos ensue; e.g. who have they got to train them?

40

Brian, wasn't the IUFM (Insitutut Universitaire de Formation des Maitres)the teacher training ?