Climate/ecological breakdown

Ok, quick explanation of why I clicked the like button on @JohnBoy comment.

I didn’t get from the comment the same feeling you did, or I think I didn’t…

Maybe as a returning forum member I have missed some history, and I note your comments about his previous posts, clearly there are issues somewhere. I’d say I’m a few drinks behind, I was late to the party, I’ll try and catch up.

But what I took from the comment was displeasure at the defacing graffiti does, I didn’t take it that the people that do it are actually scum ‘said with hate’, no, just a turn of phrase.

Reading through old topics today I have noticed the language on some topics has started to become vulgar and people becoming terse etc. Some of the ones I’ve read today include “I don’t give a shit what you think” and “if you don’t like it piss off”, these are just two examples of many and from “respected” members.

Is it that the world is changing in terms of what people feel is now acceptable to say to others in everyday chats, or is it as Joe South sang in the song “Games people play”

Never meaning what they say now
Never saying what they mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzH7AyYGDks

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I have ammended my comment.

Really, would you care to remind me why I come across to you as scum?

How is that thread drift?
The abuses of multinational agribusiness are absolutely central to climate/ecological breakdown!

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Great tune :slightly_smiling_face:

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Your generalisation of all graffiti artists as scum for starters perhaps, although as I thought I had made clear in my comment I don’t think that at all, I just assume you’re seeing the world through your eyes.

To bring it back to “graffiti artists”, I assume you still don’t appreciate that you’re labelling a vast umbrella of people. I assume you are referring to people who illegally tag property, not graffiti artists. You’re saying “drivers are scum” because you’ve seen people Drink drive and cause deaths, or double park and stop ambulances getting through. Drink drivers and dangerous double parkers may be scum, drivers are not. I suspect you’re just so out of touch you’re using a term that includes hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, to mean a specific subset of graffiti artists, namely those who illegally scribble ugly tags and such on property, and on that we pretty much agree.

I see climate protesters as the Tolpuddle Martyrs, Suffragettes, Rosa Parks, etc, of our times - they are giving up their time and risking imprisonment to save our children. All such protesters were reviled by some in their own day, but in due course almost everybody understands that they made the world a better place.

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I amended my post in advance of your reply.
I think perhaps we are now in agreement that my description of those while carrying out such acts can be labelled as such.

To address @kirsteastevenson reply perhaps i should qualify my comment as indeed i dont know the individuals who choose to deface property as they do but while they are actually carrying out this act I stick with my assessment that they are scum.

I do understand your sincerity and your commitment.

I also note your reply started with “I see climate protesters”, but further on the label (for want of a better description) simply becomes "All such protesters were…) .

This is a great example of what I was going to post here, that the message can get lost, does get lost on vast numbers of people and “actions trying to draw attention to action required” simply become protests.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine conversations like this taking place in the UK “how come you’re late mate?” with the reply simply being “bloody protesters glued themselves to the road, blocked the road for hours, cops did nothing”.

Do you see how the message can easily get lost? Does easily get lost.

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Chicken and egg though, if there was no monitoring and research published how would we know the extent of the problem and what countries need to improve ?

Guys, I think some judicious editing of posts and general calming down might be good. @kirsteastevenson - I know you mollified your comment with the word “seem” in the post about not getting personal but it is close to an ad hominem attack on another forum member, and was taken that way by said member. @JohnBoy could also edit his comment on graffiti artists - while not an attack on a forum member it has sparked quite a bad tempered conversation. I also suspect it is too broad a generalisation for something which in some circles at least, is considered a valid art form.

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The thread began with an article “capitalism is killing the planet”.

Some would say the ultra wealthy are a large part of the problem. I don’t fall into this category :wink: Edited to explain, I’m not ultra rich.

I can provide some insight into things that have a direct effect on our planet. Mining and power generation.

China represents more than a quarter of all global carbon emissions, and it has spent tens of billions of dollars to build coal power facilities in 152 countries over the past decade through its Belt and Road Initiative. Roughly 70% of the coal plants built globally now rely on Chinese funding. China finances most coal plants built today – it's a climate problem and why US-China talks are essential

China has been the world’s largest carbon emitter for 20 years. It’s been responsible for 28% of the world’s carbon emissions for the past decade. That number hasn’t budged, despite rapid growth of China’s renewable energy and clean tech industries.

One of the central reasons is coal, the most carbon-intensive fossil fuel. Coal accounted for 58% of China’s total primary energy consumption as recently as 2019 – even as coal use was collapsing elsewhere. China currently operates 1,058 coal plants, roughly half of all coal plants worldwide.

Nearly all of the 60 new coal plants planned across Eurasia, South America and Africa –70 gigawatts of coal power in all – are financed almost exclusively by Chinese banks.

Coal for power stations, three countries export the bulk of the worlds coal.

Indonesia exports 455 MILLION TONS OF COAL a year
Russia exports 217 MILLION TONS OF COAL a year

These two countries might not surprise you that they still export dirty, stinking, planet killing coal.

But here’s the kicker - AUSTRALIA exports 400 MILLION TONS OF COAL a year!

When talking about the ultra rich and their massive gin palaces, you should also consider how coal is moved. Obviously it’s transported by bulk ship carrier, but what you may not be aware of is how as part of the selling/buying coal process that the buyer MUST HAVE bulk carriers waiting at anchor, ready to dock and receive the coal being purchased BEFORE their coal is extracted from the ground.

Yes, you have read that correctly.

If you want to buy coal (I only have experience with Australian companies, but I’m pretty sure it’s the same the world over) then you MUST HAVE SHIPS WAITING ready to accept the loads before the mining companies will extract the coal.

Now let’s explore further - One port on Australia’s Eastern sea board is near Mackay (with two separate coal export terminals), during my stints there, the number of huge bulk carriers at anchor waiting to dock and load varied between 84 and 120 depending upon mine productivity rates (inclement weather slows production etc). Some bulk carriers can wait three weeks or longer before being loaded.

Let us get some perspective on this, I’m explaining about ONE PORT in Queensland. Australia has ten major coal loading terminals…

I am hoping that the picture is growing clearer about the size of the coal problem.

Now let’s look at how they extract the coal from the ground .

The Queensland mines that service the port mentioned are all open cut, or simply massive holes in the ground. They use massive machines to dig the surface of the ground, removing the topsoil (overburden) until the coal seam is revealed, then massive shovels (excavators) are used to remove the coal and load it into huge haul trucks that transport it to be processed and then transported by rail to the port.

Everything in coal production is huge.

Open cut pits 11 Kilometres long, 6 Kilometres wide, simply massive holes in the ground.

The haul trucks are up to 650 tons fully loaded, using 4000 litres of diesel every 24 hours if they are mechanical drive, 3000 litres per 24 hours if they are electrical drive (same engine but drives an onboard generator which then powers electrical motors instead of mechanical drives).

We are looking at hundreds of trucks per mine, (there are a lot of mines in Queensland) some have over 650 trucks in their fleet.

Are the numbers getting big enough yet?

And where does all this coal go after it leaves the port? Currently it’s for the most part China.

India is in the final stages of opening it’s own mines in Australia for it’s power stations in India, they have a ‘pit to plug’ ethos. Where the Indian company owns the mine, the transport system to the port, it owns the port, the shipping company, the port in India, the power station in India and it owns the power lines to the end users premises. Pit to plug.

Side note - talking about population and climate change - In India every week one million people turn 18 years old and it will remain this way for years to come. Consider how that could impact on climate change.

Ok, but what’s my point with this post?

Protesters, do they help or hinder the cause? (that could in itself be a new topic…) why not target the producers of the damage?

Why not directly target “Scotty from marketing” otherwise known as Scott Morrison Australia’s coal loving Prime Minister? Why are protesters not gluing themselves to his gates, car, road in his street? Why not disrupt directly the lives of people that can in one stroke of a pen outlaw the use and exporting of dirty, stinking coal?

Would “protesters” not get a better response and more exposure by targeting the Chinese embassies on mass around the world? Or Australian etc?

Because I can’t see what blocking Sarah from Longparish (pick a name and add a village) trying to get her elderly mum to hospital by gluing yourself to the road is going to achieve - versus preventing the Australian PM from getting to a golf game and making embarrassing news for him around the world about his love of coal and the damage it does to the planet.

And there was me saying to my wife " I won’t be long, just wanted to add some input to a discussion"…

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Tbh I should suggest both you, and the member, entirely missed the point of everything I was saying if you honestly think that, which is a shame, because the whole comment was an attempt at saying the opposite. :woman_shrugging:

I’m also not even sure anyone is not calm, I’m certainly calm, and I thought @JohnBoy was too. It’s a shame if my (I thought obvious) attempt at trying to point out the foolishness of ad hominem was actually taken by some as ad hominem. Perhaps more coffee is in order for all, especially me to make clearer what I’m trying to say :rofl:

Have you read the beginning of this thread? Everything is the UKs fault (or more probably Englands). China and India only need the coal to produce the stuff we want to buy. A man on a video on another thread tells us that migrants are worth millions more to the economy than Brits. Excuse me while I go off and top myself. What is the point of any of us Brits? That’s apparently why its okay to cause us grief because we are worthless pieces of sh1t. Nothing like improving people’s self esteem to think they can actually make a difference is there?

Its the “were” part as apposed to where they are now.

Our local town has several pretty ugly concrete walls extending over quite large distances. One summer they brought in some of the best graffiti artists in France and, with the help of local kids said walls were converted into a wonderful, vibrant art exhibition. :grin:

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I have no objections whatsoever off organised art which can be very pleasing. We have a water tower close by which was painted green a year or 2 ago and then artists painted apples and cows on it depicting the area which all looks really good.
I think there is a clear distinction between that and graffiti which wikipedia describes as:

Graffiti is a type of art genre that means writing or drawings made on a wall or other surface, usually without permission and within public view

Hense my comment on the following remark which I would be very surprised if it was an organised legal act of art. Perhaps Geoff can confirm.

Yes, but those emissions are partly (maybe largely) due to their outsourcing created by the worldwide demand for the goods produced more quickly & cheaply there.

Again, yes, but imagine what they’d be like without the adoption of clean tech & energy?

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@Corona This is where they are now, in 2022 Australian coal exports are forecast to smash records, with value to break 100 Billion Australian Dollars with early indicators predicting a combined total export value of 110 Billion Australian Dollars. Source: Coal exports forecast to smash record with value set to break $100 billion this financial year - ABC News accessed 17/04/2022.

It’s the second largest yearly export from Australia, the largest being Iron Ore with the 2021 year total value of exports being 149 Billion Australian Dollars - Roughly 867 Million tonnes of Iron Ore exported in 2021, predicting to rise to 920 Million tonnes in 2022.

You need to try and understand how much earth/material has to be moved before you get to extract and produce 867 million tonnes of Iron Ore, try and picture holes in the ground the size of upside down mountains.

In 2012 I visited a coal mining operation in Wales, the coal seam being mined was two foot, the operators there asked me how big were the seams in Oz mines on average. Their eyes were like dinner plates when I explained 28 meter coal seams were not uncommon.

Iron ore mining in Australia is also open cut mining, the same as Australian coal mines.

To give some perspective on the damage to the planet this would be having, Fortescue, an Australian Iron Ore mining company owned by Dr. Andrew Forrest (he earned a Ph.D. in marine ecology two years ago) exports “only” 180 million tonnes of Iron Ore per year. To achieve it the company burned through 700 million liters of diesel and released 2.2 million tons of greenhouse gases — more than some small countries.

So there you go @Corona , this is where they are now, I hope this helps people see somethings a little clearer.

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Hi @Badger

I agree those emissions are partly due to outsourcing and demand for goods for export.

But, having worked with companies that set up new facilities in China, originally with the intent to manufacture in China cheaply and export back to wherever. I can state that the companies I was involved with quickly realised the biggest market was inside China and began selling to Chinese companies direct.

As an example if you have ever been to industrial centres in China you would not fail to notice the number of high rise dwellings - each with individual air con units. The internal sales of aircon units inside China would keep many an air con manufacturer in clover for many years to come.

Just one example, consider consumer goods like TV etc, not everyone in China is poor, and obviously nor does every company in China export.

Like India, China has a huge internal appetite.

I do agree with you “imagine what they’d be like without the adoption of clean tech & energy?” Scary ? Yes I think so.

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