Could you forgive a killer?

Ah Peter, I was a young buck in those days, and I think we all thought we were immortal, odd though it may sound.

I shifted up about a stone in weight playing Rugby (second row), but now I am a mere 13 st 8lbs (in old money) and a fair amount of that has shifted from shoulders to stomach!

Y'know what was one of the strangest things about the Bouncers I knew? With one exception they were all 'Gentle Giants' who loved kids. It was always fascinating to see them socially in this manner. The exception was one called 'Ginger' for obvious reasons, who was definitely a nutter and was kept on a short leash by the others. There was one other oddity one was a dead ringer for Robert Mitchum, and another identical to Roy Orbison- maybe there are others out there of my generation who might recall these guys? My brother was known as 'The Bront'.

Coo, memory lane!

Gulp, I promise never to take the mickey again......gulp !

Peter,

yep there's a memory maker 'Rachmanism' even entered the Dictionary for a while if I recall correctly. I was on nodding acquaintance with the Krays as well. The best way to know them!

I wasn't a London bouncer although for a while my brother and some of his mates were at the Hammersmith Palais. I don't know if you ever went there but there was a corner bar casually known as 'the Tall Men's Club', and where you had to be over 6' tall to get in (theoretically). Thats where the Bouncers congregated close to the dance floor, and very effective they were. Any sign of trouble six would appear and the offenders would find themselves out on the streets via the fire doors, almost before anyone noticed!

I worked the Slough Adelphi Ballroom (above the Cinema) with my brother and for a short period of time on my own at the Slough Palais de Danse. I did these stints over a period of almost three years (evenings and weekends). In all that time I got lots of threats, but not once did anyone take a swing at me, strange what pseudo-authority can do. Plus most who got involved in altercations (usually over a girl) really didn't want trouble, and being ejected by a couple of big guys was enough of a salve on their masculine pride; 'What did you expect me to do with those big b******s" being good enough.

Interesting experience and insight into human nature as well. Mind you I was always glad to have my brother's 6'6" , 19.5 stone of ex-Merchant Marine along side me! Made my 6'1" and 15.5 stone seem quite small!

Is her religion now a handy umbrella to maybe put up to show the killer some defiance, or is it indeed genuine ? That's a really interesting possibility, Peter: forgiveness as a show of defiance. There are so many possible reasons for doing that, for show, or for personal satisfaction, or even, dare I say, as an act of aggression. That could be torture to someone like this killer. Food for thought.

And not to mention Peter Rachman......

But I dont think 'ritual of forgiveness is expected of us Donna. As the majority on this forum have said, they don't forgive. Maybe forgiveness amongst the black church goers is the norm but I ask the same question as before. The daughter who stood up publically and forgave the killer, was this genuine or just a front to help make her christian beliefs more believable ? i'm quite sceptical about the whole 'God' thing. Is her religion now a handy umbrella to maybe put up to show the killer some defiance, or is it indeed genuine ?

I actually found the article very interesting despite the various digs at the whites because it seemed to give an insight of just how primitive or tentative the race question is in at least that part of the USA.

It's pretty depressing Brian, sad times.

With all due respect Brian, lots of people have come out with both straight and nuanced answers. You may not like some of those answers, but there they are. Some people have taken the time and effort to explain different ways of considering the question, in its many shades of grey, but you ignore those and stick to your own agenda. You are not the sole voice of authority here when it comes to forgiving violence or not. People are lot more complicated than that and some of us have lived more than you will ever know. Yes, if someone comes up with a platitude, it's hard not to challenge it and one hopes, sometimes in vain, that the person will explain himself or herself. That's why we have a discussion. We're not in catechism class or Sunday school anymore. Otherwise this just turns into a bunch of people making speeches, mouthing platitudes and pontificating, and I find that boring. I try to stir things up, to provoke, to see if people are awake, hoping people will express something new, or look at the issue from a different point of view from what they are conditioned or accustomed. It's not all black and white. For once, just once, I would love to see someone say 'I've never thought of it that way before', 'I'll think about it', or 'I've changed my mind.' A lot of people seem to dig their heels in when there's a devil's advocate on the loose, instead of relishing the opportunity to think about and talk about new ideas.

Peter,

not quite Victor Sylvester, but definitely the era when flick knives, bicycle chains - and even believe it or not fish hooks sewn on sleeves were as much part of 'fashion' as drape suits and brothel creepers.

Interesting and violent times indeed, plus the days spent in Docklands when it was Docklands. Happy days when TV's were rented and I would deliver them in multi-storied flats (no lifts) wondering just how many we would ever see again! and when the punch-up in the pub car-park was almost 'de rigeur'.

Read the book! :-)

Elizabeth, it really would help if you addressed your remarks to an individual. This followed a comment by Brian, which is patently not what where it should have appeared. Almost certainly it is aimed at me.

In response how do things become 'platitudes' do you think? Possibly becuase they reflect reality - or is that not within your conceptual boundaries? Why should you be searching for e 'new thought' Patently because, you haven't a new one to offer?

Why have I not wanted to vist the USA? Because, quite simply I have found other parts of the world far more interesting to visit, plus I followed where the work was, and the offers opened.

My 'faulty opinions? Well you could well be right about that, but some at least were formulated by handling the Winchester Arms & Ammunition business in Australia for a number of years, plus that of General Motors - granted one-step removed. Whereas yours were formed ........where?

Very out of date, well there's a platitude if I ever heard one, but lets' not spoil a good rant with a practical observation. Out of date possibly, but with 75 years of international experience under my belt, I think I just about managed to get a few facts understood.

So please elucidate just where I am so antidiluvian, so we can all benefit from your advanced knowledge and erudition.

I am all ears.

I haven't actually seen anyone consumed or destroyed by their hatred yet. Some seem to be quite at peace with it, and others are having a lot of fun with it, so I personally wouldn't worry too much ;-)

Crikey - what does 'being consumed by hatred' look like and how will I be destroyed?

I don't find it a racist rant either but then it seems as divorced from the reality of Charleston as we are in its way. However, I agree with Peter on the point about being a black in the USA today, those wounds should be long closed and healed over but they continue to fester. It does not inspire much hope.

I don't know what it's like to be black in a modern USA either. I have American family, I have black American friends, that's the closest I get. It didn't strike me as racist, even though it talks about race. She makes some good observations about white mainstream media. But what struck a chord with me most was her willingness to not go with the flow that is expected of us, the ritual of forgiveness and all the platitudes that go with that, which is like putting a bandage on an infected wound. It looks good and makes everyone feel good for awhile, but so what? Another reason I posted this article was that I thought it was a good idea to bring in the opinion of someone living in the country where the tragedy occurred, someone a little closer to the reality than most of us participating in this discussion.

It reads more like a racist rant to me Donna. I'm not saying she's wrong because I dont know what it's like to be black in a modern USA but if what she says is true then there's not much hope is there ?

I have actually only disagreed with people so far, I do not have the moral imperative to tell any of you they are wrong to have their views. I do not believe violence is a useful way of fighting violence, whether that is 'legitimate' use of death penalties, arbitrary revenge or anything else. It also creates heroes and martyrs of those who are cruellest, such is IS right now with devastating affects because it is attracting more people to it than pushing them away as one might expect. They are not 99.9% of Moslems' views let alone yours or mine. However, they do not compare with an individual such as Dylann Root for a large number of reasons. It certainly has nothing to do with Peter's original question.

The beheading in London was some time ago, last year in fact. The trial finished yesterday with the man who is a paranoid schizophrenic cleared of murder on the grounds of insanity. He will be kept in a secure unit indefinitely. Perhaps Root is comparable. We do not know.

Thus far only Catharine has given a straight out answer to the question, Jane and Gary expressed their take on the question and were to a point put down in one sense or another for what they said. When anybody challenges those who advocate violent retaliation do so they they are met with generally aggressive responses. Just look back over the thread. Sometimes it looks like any claims to have found civilisation are a very incomplete process. Well, the fact we still have wars confirms that. At present the world has 35 ongoing situations of conflict which is 1 in every 5.6 countries in the world has terrorism, civil or inter-country war, a major drug war or similar. The shocking thing is that an estimated just under 15% of deaths daily are caused by one kind of violence or another. It comes second to under five year olds dying from mostly preventable diseases and malnutrition. We have far to go to reach civilisation.

I just read a very eloquent and powerful op-ed piece in the New York Times. It expresses better than I could the notion that sometimes forgiveness is a cheap platitude, some people are so beneath our contempt we don't even hate them, and it's perfectly alright.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/opinion/why-i-cant-forgive-dylann-roof.html?_r=0

"I am no hero, and I too have been in circumstances of violence, not least in being a Dance Hall bouncer"

Blimey Norman, I didn't realise Victor Sylvester gigs were so violent ?

Brian, if I don't have my ownvalues - then by implication I should accept those of others?

Sorry I can't buy that. Why should theirs be any better than mine? Yesterday there was another beheading in London. I am sure that guy who did it had his values, I am sure that ISIS has its' values, but again they are not mine.

If people don't have their own-self determined values, albeit influenced by our backgrounds and culture and even laws - what do we live by? For me your values are far too forgiving and lenient, but fair enough as they don't impinge on mine, only differ. In my experience both personal and viewed is that those who simply 'take it' just get more of the same.

I am no hero, and I too have been in circumstances of violence, not least in being a Dance Hall bouncer, but what I DID learn through my life is that scared or not, life is a Hell of a lot easier by fighting back. I totally acknowledge that I would probably scream for mercy if some gutless swine was about to cut my throat with a rusty knife, but that wouldn't change my belief, as I am sure my throat would be cut anyway.

My opening remarks remain. There IS evil in the world and we should recognise it and fight against it to the best of our abilities or we simply get overwhelmed by it - or, even worse are somehow seen to condone it. In MY view (again MY view) forgiveness falls into that latter category - whether inadvertent, well-meaning or not. We all go to Hell in our own way, but as far as I can or am able to make it, I will go standing up, even in a changed world where this could be described as suicidal.

Yes, I AM arrogant Brian, and that too is the person I am. I have never made any secret of my prejudices and beliefs. People either take me for them or pass me by. Although I might prefer the former, the latter doesn't 'destroy' me either. Or maybe, as Jane forecasts, I am destroyed already and simply don't recognise it?

If so - who cares? I certainly don't.

I don't honestly believe making them martyrs or leaving them to rot in a prison (at our expense) changes much. Followers of these murderers will treat them as hero figures come what may, dead or alive. One dead Jihadist will be followed by another, a bit like a number 19 bus.

Precisely Donna, we are in a no win situation with them. My reference is what they are doing to others of course, without trying to justify anything they do. Which I cannot.