Say it again with an Hallelujah, democracy is very fragile. Nobody knows what it really is and everybody has a different version but always uses it as the basis for arguments that are equally fragile. As for any hint of democracy in Sharia, well the jury is out. As you very rightly say, they are masters (I use that gender deliberately) at breaking their Quranic commandments at the drop of a hat. The extent to which the name of the Prophet is used to justify violence is naturally number one. Sure, the Quran does advocate some draconian things by modern western/Christian society standards. We only got rid of those between 200 hundred years ago and to some extent are still doing so, plus it is that much older than Islam that they have time to follow anyway. My sojourns in Islamic countries are far less than yours and I have found 'ordinary' people generally more hospitable and generous than in most European countries. I have always held my tongue regarding their religion although most go no further than on their knees and praying as required. For all of that, either with a UN agency or NGO I have always been under the eye of community leaders including imams and felt very uncomfortable at times because of things they said on the one hand and did on the other.
It has, as you say, happened before everywhere but history is cast aside when it indicts those whose history we are speaking out of. I also agree, as much as I am more of a federalist or more so an internationalist than most other people, that the EU has far more undemocratic methods than could ever be acceptable if people could have a voice on whether to have them or not. The same institution was set up for large part to a) make sure the German story of the Weimar Republic into WW2 never happened again and b) that Stalinism was held at bay. Now they are employing shades of both, which the likes of you or I see but most other people simply ignore. Now look at the UK where secret courts are being pushed through, using laws that mean trials can be concealed from the public and suspects convicted on evidence they and their lawyers are never allowed to see. Good old democratic UK heh! Then we can look at everybody else much the same way and notice that the world is not generally democratising but going the other way.
We definitely should never dismiss genuine concerns, true, but when they are amplified words of a person who is highly prejudiced such as the fundamentalist in Brussels then a whole handful of salt. Indeed, as fragile democracy may be, western capitalism is far too powerful to allow Sharia in reality. The total hypocrisy of the ruling hegemony in those 'Islamic' states you know is breathtaking to say the least but the hands that move money for them are rarely subject to Sharia law and past a certain point beyond their own borders is probably quite undesirable.
We don't really have to go too far away to recognise that France itself is made up of a mass of former independent states, and different languages.
Without going back to the 12th Century just the 19th & 20th. Breton language was banned for years, Langue d'Oc is still used, although not formally, Nice was Italian as was the Haute Savoie, and dear old Alsace-Lorraine has been bounced around constantly from being German or French. Plus the Basque region remains independently minded, as does the other side closer to Catalonia. Corsica anyone?
I am sure there are probably others.
Looking across the Channel - what about Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, the Isle of Man? The whole business of 'Nations and Nationalism' is built on shifting sands. Even Germany only became a single State in 1870, and so it goes on.
Today I would submit that 'cultural differences' exist just as much in regions of countries, and are promoted as such in every tourist brochure. Cultural differences in my humble opinion are excellent for enrichment, but only when one does not attempt to dominate or throw out all the others. A single language is a vast convenience in a country, and when I read that official documents in Britain are (were?) presented in something like 20 different non-native languages that seemed a step too far for me.
I think the adjacency of 'Sharia Law' and 'thinly veiled racism' probably put the association in my mind. Possibly because it is a fairly standard argument used against people who don't want to see it incorporated into Law of any kind in any country I choose or prefer to live in.
As you know I have lived (and worked) under Sharia Law for about three years, mainly in the Gulf States (so-called moderate), Saudi and Kuwait (hardline), and Jordan (somewhere in between except for the Palestinians there). Of course not all these people are Evangelical, and often to be honest not that good at obeying their own religious laws on occasion, but those that are, in my view consitute a serious and genuine threat. I believe that by now we have enough evidence to support that.
This is purely my contention that we cannot dismiss genuine concerns, with accusations of racism or whatever. That way we could all end up sleepwalking into disaster by ignoring it through PC. It HAS happened before, in all parts of the world.
Personally I think Democracy remains a fragile flower, and although a staunch supporter of the European (even International) concept, there are many laws being passed in the EU that at least could threaten some things we regard as Democratically set in stone. Non-election by the people of EC Commissioners being just one of them.
Not accusing you at all Norman. Those are not referring to YOUR words at all. I am simply saying that the media reports that have started the exacerbated this silly message that people are taking as a precise prediction is 'thinly veiled racism'. I do not refer to Islam as a race at all, sorry but I wonder where you see that at all, I know very well it is a religion and that race and religion are only separable. Read back over again slowly. My point is more, that we should not be dragged into the trap of believing in this kind of inevitability. Democratic constitutions safeguard that and without some kind of civil war it is hard to displace them. A lot has changed and become stronger since 1933 to 1945. So read again and look for where I say Islam is a race and quote it back, then I shall stand corrected, but I already have and cannot find it.
Brian, I am little surprised at being accused of 'thinly veiled racism'. Not so much because of the comment itself, but by you of all people referring to Islam as a race. It is a creed, a religion, a following, call it what you will but it isn't a Race under any definition.
If you called me a Racist because my experience with Arabs leads me to that conclusion, well again that need discussion as for example Egyptians, Iraquis and Iranians for example do not regard themselves as 'Arab', even though they share the same - or variants thereof, of the Islamic faith.
I am still trying to track down the TV interview which was not with an eyeballs out white racist, nor by ditto as an Islamist (although he was an Immam). It was with an Islamic Fundamentalist living in Brussels who was discussing the demographic shift in that country and the inevitability of Sharia Law being established. It was more concerning because it was not a rant, but a serious discussion.
When I find it I will post it here. When I do, please note they are NOT my words, but someone involved (apparently) in the process.
Sorry again that I can't follow you down the path of loving everybody when an Evangelical religion such as Islam, threatens the values I have held all my life. That's how the Nazis got away with it. There is a place for tolerance, but also a place for reality. I think History shows us that much don't you?
Sure Theo. I have been entitled since I was 60. As I say above, I get three times as much as from the UK. In fact, in real terms, I paid into both UK and German systems for roughly the same length of time when it is all added up, therefore the disparity does not encourage me to be loyal to the UK. It was mainly because the grants I had for research, mainly from the UK government at that, being non-stipendiary exempted me from taxes, social security and such contributions but gave the impression I would be covered. German rules made it clear, live there and pay, benefit from the system or do not pay and get nothing. That choice was clear, especially with a German born child who was covered by me being in the system from 1971 on.
Brain, you know that you are entitled for a retirement in Germany if you have paid for minimum 10 years. 25 are necessary to have full cover, but 18 is still good. So hopefully you have initiated this process with the BfA. Its a bit paperwork but not really complicated.
nothing like the "Nick & Dave" road show to give one confidence for the future. Does the left hand really know what the right hand is doing?????? have we got to the stage of Greeks bearing gifts, I am not sure as there seem to be many facets in this mix? Could Farage give the best answer?
I have just read in The Connexion that if your income comes from outside France you will not be granted French citizenship, even if you have been resident for five years.
This could leave British citizens who have been out of the UK for more than fifteen years with no vote in the UK and no possibility of becoming a french citizen and having a vote in France.
So much for Nick Clegg and his off the cuff remarks about joining in with local politics!
Yes, the Germans have always made some dirty jokes that to the rescue of the German speaking Swiss they probably would have to send the girls-fire-brigade of Freiburg... but I think that has its origins in all those tax evaders frm Thyssen over the managers of the armory factory Rhein-Metal to the little dentist.It has partly to do with this "waiter attitude" to host foreign assets, -like the gold that the Nazis at Auschwitz have stolen from those they had murdered.
This is why I made a point with Singapore. Remember the time it was created: During the 1960s most of its neighbors in the region fell into the trap of this communist imbecility of ethnic equality while the so called civilized world justified its invasion of Vietnam as democratic. Indonesia a dictatorship while Singapore was charged as being "undemocratic". Today it is one of the least corrupt countries on the planet, with a prosperity for many, inherited the good ole school uniforms and other good elements of roles from the UK. But most important thing the government there is encouraging: being a self supporting individual! Of course then there is little time to put up with gay rights, crime or leaving homeless to rot in the streets. Finally there is something to learn from this concepts they have there.
apparently the process takes upto two years :-O I still haven't filled all the forms in althoug, like you, I tick all the boxes, OH and kids are French, lived, worked and paid taxes here for years. Don't have to take the language test as I have a maîtrise français langue étrangère and was teaching French at an IUT here so it'd be a bit daft asking me to do the test!
The whole admin bit and the parents' birth certificates etc is just soo "lourd" that I haven't got round to filling in the application forms !
Maybe Theo. On Switzerland try that comparison with my wife. She is from the Italian language canton Ticino. Until relatively recently Italian was not included as a national language, indeed English was more likely to have been used on official documents. That was accompanied by progressive 'Germanification', which only over the lat 20 years has been stopped. Then there is the question of Rumantsch which is treated as a nearly extinct language although for the last five or so years it has been included on official documents as one of the national languages. Nonetheless, it is still argued by the German speaking majority in areas where Rumantsch speakers live, that to invest in education in that language is not viable. So, the melting pot notion is rather a stretched one as the point you make very rightly about the diversity in the USA. Different cultures are not generally liked or well tolerated. The polemicists' views on Belgium are ridiculous. It is a constitutional democracy and the idea that it could fall under Sharia law at some stage in the foreseeable future is absurd. That is simply veiled racism. More to the point should be the possibility of a kind of 'neutrality' position that would allow people who settle in a place to be fully integrated into social, economic and political life because they are contributing to that place. If they choose not to then with a neutral policy it does not matter. In fact, looked at square on, it is about as democratic as anything could ever be and should have been part of the EU long since.
Shirley, the problem of "far too many differing cultures" is much higher in the US. It does not help to say "we are all Americans" and the rest is depending on "God bless America". If there is a successful implementation of a multi cultural /ethnic society, then this would be Singapore. Since mid-1960s, - due to all this known strict codes and laws there are no tensions.That issues like gay people aren't publicly discussed is because they are for a society of lesser importance then prosperaty for all.
Looking at Europe, the first thing which comes to mind is this melting pot, Birmingham, but also all the other places where the refugees from former colonies are demanding their rights as a third or fourth generation. France just created parallel-societies and did not managed integration at all. Someone here once wrote that in some years in Belgium the sharia law would be implemented. I think the chance that attempts for this nonsense will rather take place in Birmingham.
After all, language is just the tool of our thoughts, they do not separate people,- look again Singapore, or closer to us, Swiss.
So, overall there is a pretty healthy common sense on how to design a Europe and to keep its varieties of languages and codes. This is only being spoiled by those who suffer the constant nagging syndrome on the lowest level.
The ability to vote on a local levels is just the first step. Participation in National elections will come at one point. It will take place when the national governments openly say how much power they already have transfered to Brussels and that most of their powers lies in Brussels.
These national governments would be good advised not to pretend to us that they are in charge. Their power lays long in Brussels, mainly in the hands of very large enterprises who are the real beneficiaries of the EU. We only got the Euro and this relatively liberal rights to establish ourselves everywhere in the EU. Earlier we get a grasp of this development, earlier we will avoid election results like recently in Italy.
But turning the wheel back is getting us nowhere else then into the stone-ages, the UK included. If societies are not able to remove their somewhat rebellious youthful attitudes at some point they will go down the same path as these natives in the Balkans. Then the only beneficiaries are third parties.
Thanks for this Andrew, as I wasn't sure what this bit was going to mean to me, but I qualify on all the counts there, plus the married to a French National bit. Done the habitation bit (albeit by house ownership more than physical presence, but still did the tax returns etc for the 15 years).
Because of my deafness I am far better with the written word than I am with verbal, but that applies to English as well. Once I know the subject I am OK in participating, but do have major problems hearing the replies - especially in crowds or in volubility.
I applied for French Nationality about two weeks ago, and supplied all the (initially) requested documents, but have heard nothing back yet, so we must wait and see. I fully anticipate a bureaucratic barn dance, but I have provided what was listed on the website so we will see what happens.
the bit that was added a year or so ago, John :
Assimilation à la communauté française
Connaissance de la langue française
Selon sa condition sociale (niveau d'études, ressources...), le demandeur doit justifier d'une connaissance suffisante de la langue française, caractérisée par la compréhension du langage nécessaire à la vie courante et par sa capacité à s'exprimer sur des sujets familiers dans ses domaines d'intérêt.
Les personnes âgées de plus de 65 ans peuvent être dispensées de produire l'attestation délivrée par les organismes de formation au français langue d'intégration. Leur niveau de connaissance de la langue française est apprécié lors de l'entretien d'assimilation.
La condition de connaissance de la langue française ne s'applique pas aux réfugiés statutaires et apatrides en séjour habituel et régulier depuis au moins 15 ans en France et âgés de plus de 70 ans. ...
But as you say, I don't think it's going to happen either!
That is, Shirley, the beauty of choice. I simple do not believe I 'belong' in the UK, I have had my feet out too much and too long and feel comfortable wherever I put my bum long enough, therefore have long lost that 'patriotic' feeling that allows people your point of view. Both work, but for individuals who make either or other choices. Nobody is wrong, neither Simon or I nor you. It is, however, those who browbeat either you or I about either being a 'patriot' or 'get the hell out' who dislike choice who get worked up about it.
Disagree Dick. I had many years of grants from UK government departments rather than salary, leaving me in 'no-man's land' in terms of employment status, pension and so on. I shall receive £42 a week or thereabouts from the UK, for paying into the German system for roughly 18 years at the same time because I had a shared professional life I am entitled to three times as much since I was 60. In that sense I should have a German MP or should I grovel back to the UK every time I want something I will pay for through the nose such as my passport? I acknowledge where my origins are but have spent far too long away from there to care on a day to day basis and believe we should have a choice. Clegg's view is that of a simpleton intellectually because it assigns loyalty to birth in a particular place or with the right to the nationality of that place - although one may never set foot their in a life time. No siree, I would rather be a European with EU nationality and vote where I live but the choice of being as per birthright should be there as well. Clegg's single choice non-choice is rather typical of a man who really does not know what he really is. So the reference to any opinion he has is tainted anyway.
I think that there are many contributors to this thread who miss the point. The act of voting for someone, although an important democratic right, is not the the most important point. Nick Clegg has suggested we all our nationality to that of our host country so that we can vote in the national elections - but I for one have no intention of relinquishing my British citizenship. That said, I would love to be a citizen of a United States of Europe!
The major point of remaining on the UK electoral roll is that it allocated you to a constituency - and thus an MP to represent your interest in parliament. As expat retirees our pensions are paid by the UK government and our healthcare provision is the responsibility of the UK government since the EU law changed a couple of years ago. Many of us who were teachers, nurses, policemen, military personnel and other public service workers have our pensions taxed in the UK by law. The dual taxation treaty is very much an important part of our everyday lives.
Perhaps more crucially, an MP is able to exert much more influence in resolving problems that arise with such things as tax, pensions, social security and passports, than an individual. I know of several UK citizens resident in France who have had occasion to use an MP for this purpose.
A good answer to our disenfranchisement would be to have an MP (or MPs) elected by us in the same way as French and Italian citizens living overseas do. The campaign for this arrangement is under way as mentioned in Brian Cave's original post. It would be good if those of us who choose to remain British citizens and choose to take part in the democratic process gained some support from SFN members of a like mind.
Were do you live now Phil?